Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller

[jayums]

If there weren't people like Frank out there, people that cared so much about a particular area of our great hobby that they would put their own reputation (and in this case their own collection..that's the sound of the baggie market collapsing btw) on the line just to stop others falling foul of some sellers counterfeit items, then every single one of you would be up **** creek without a paddle. Totally unaware of the legitimacy of the items in your own collection, proudly displaying your billy boy samples, pristine Toni mocs..or some of Jeff's Baggies.

^ this.
As a new collector I would be really pissed off if information like this was withheld from the rest of us because of concerns about a seller's feelings / reputation. I can make my own mind up about that thanks!

Thanks Frank for your hard work. The rest of us would be screwed (or perhaps just blissfully ignorant) without it.

 

[Snaketibe]

OK, I have been following this thread with great interest since it began. I'm not a baggie collector, nor do I know Jeff, nor have I ever bought anything from him. I don't have anything but my opinions to offer regarding him and the fakes highlighted in this thread, and since plenty of others have already offered us theirs, I'll not burden any of you with mine

What I will do however is join in with those thanking Frank and the team for their magnificent efforts in researching and compiling all of the information presented to the community in this invaluable thread. This was clearly not a quick or easy task, but it was a vital one for the integrity of the Vintage baggie collecting community, and even though I am not part of that particular corner of our community, I still offer my sincere thanks for the resilience, dedication and altruism shown in presenting the evidence here. You have done Vintage collecting a great service.

Great thanks too must, I feel, be directed towards Edd, who cut a lonely figure at times in this thread as he resolutely stuck to his guns and remained both calm and focused in his responses as a torrent of comments flooded his way. Edd, I think you dealt with things with great integrity and good grace, when many other people might have done rather less well.

Thank you to all of you.

 

[Frunkstar]

Hi, I bought these Palitoy Fett baggies from a guy in the UK in April. I sent them into AFA and they say not only did this figure not come in this type of baggie, they both have overlapping paint on the head and belt which differs in color texture and accuracy from the original paint underneath. I have posted some pictures under a blacklight. When AFA inform me about the baggies I gave them the go-ahead to inspect the figures. The main reason I bought these 2 figures was because I've been trying for years to find a near perfect example.

Further to Marty's post & before I go on at any length I would first like to say that if these tro logo fett's were refused a grade regardless of if they were opened by AFA (which BTW if they were real would be a travesty IMO) & have been refused a grade for obvious tampering - having clear signs of being repainted then a full refund should be issued under Jeff's "no questions asked refunds policy" IMHO - my thinking - if they had been fine they would have graded & there would never have been any need for a refund simple as that.

It is worth noting that they differ in paint apps with one being a painted dart & the other unpainted even the paint colour of the yellow /mustard on the dart are, which to me would indicate they came from different batches, to me it also looks like at least one has touch ups to the belt, it is also worth nothing that the paint type used on the figures in the production process do not show up under a blacklight so even if it has been touched up at production due to bad take of the paint in the spray mask stage any further subsequent paint added would have not been viable under the black light as a different colour as the exact same paint type would have been used.

Below are examples I have on the baggie guide which till now I just took as being cool paint app variations, I will get to my point about all this further down to summarize after pointing out bit's on each so please bear with me.

Painted dart (mustard) /dark belt / painted knee / dark blaster / font at roughly crotch height

unpainted knee /unpainted dart (lighter lemon yellow) / lighter blue blaster / dark belt / font at shoulder height

Unpainted Dart / painted knee / belt with dark in the middle but light brown on both legs to the belt / dark blaster / teat at knee height

So to summarize the above - these were all bought from the same place - Jeff, all 3 are different in terms of paint app's one has a different colour weapon & Marty's 2 are also different (paint app's & blasters) these were all offered for sale with mailer boxes which "quote by Jeff" came with them when I got them & offered up for sale with them so though maybe not stated as a tri fett mailer, the images would indicate so, can't remember if they were indeed listed as mailer or just with mailer boxes, though I am sure someone can can clear that point up for us, to me also quite an important issue is where the font placement is on them as well as the boxes being the incorrect size for any known & confirmed fett mailer be in kenner SW or ESB era or Palitoy as all know examples are identical in dimensions, the boxes offered with these are the same size as is associated with the Nien Nunb mailer.

Now my reasoning -

1. till these turned up I owned the only ever confirmed palitoy-a tri logo fett which I will post a photos of below as a reference, I got it off long time baggie collector Del Hooper who was just selling up & getting out of the hobby when I was coming in to it, so it's been about a long time, it has the light blue blaster.

2. If these all came from the same place I.E Jeff bought them in for onward sale, then surely with the sum in question there would be some record of the transaction & a name of the seller as he had a lot of these I count 5 above alone & I know of at last one more owned by someone I know also from Jeff, most likely a great deal more of them as well that I do not know of, it's a recent transaction so must be some paper trail?

3. why if they all came from the same place would they have so many differences??, surely if they were from a single run which I would expect they were (hypothetical) then would not the entire batch be of the same paint applications as well as variation I.E all painted knee + unpainted dart + dark belt + same colour weapon for example??.

4. If they did indeed all come from the same batch would the bags not have also come from the same batch?, if so would the font not have been roughly in the same place on all of them give or take a few MM's as it the norm with batch runs off machinery.

For the record I am not stating they are fakes, I am stating there are a great many "possible" red flags with a single batch of figures of the same type, which I find worrying as a collector of baggies.

If however (speculation) they had been made up recently by "someone" not saying Jeff himself directly or maybe even indirectly as I simple do not have all the answers I would wish, but that would certainly explain the vast variations, does this not strike anyone else as a little odd at bear minimum??.

I know there is by no means anything concrete or conclusive, but there are enough red flags for this to warrant full investigation IMO considering many of these changed hands at I think up to 750 quid a pop,so not small potatoes by anyone's standards.

This is my older example which as said till these showed up was the only one found in the past 20+ years -

is also worthy of note that the oldest known example would seem to have a different top seal to any of these other examples from what I can tell from the photos alone.

 

[Lom]

I've been trying to keep up best I can with all of this while on holiday but haven't had the time to sit down and reply until now.

I want to say a quick thanks to Frank for all his hard work within the baggie collecting world and for trying his best to spearhead this investigation and bring it to peoples attention.

I've read through most of the posts and comments on SWF. Its been an interesting read to say the least. While some people have raised fair points and criticisms I have to say that I was quite shocked at the amount of people posting who were seemingly more worried about this dealers reputation taking a beating than the fact that they had just found out that he's been selling fakes for a period of years!

As has been said by others, outing a bad seller or dodgy community member without contacting them first isn't a new thing so I'm not sure why that's such an issue although I am in agreement that the wording of Franks initial post wasn't well thought out.


The problem here is that Jeff and the legitimacy of some of the baggies he sells has come up in conversation many times before now, mostly in private but there have been a few watch out threads too. I started one a few years ago myself (its been linked several times now) and instead of a "thanks for the heads up" response that one might expect after warning about fake items I had a load of people say what a good seller he was! :roll:

Lets just be clear on something, Jeff HAS been made aware of dodgy items in the past. Whether that was via returns on ebay or through collector opinion/input its not like he thought everything he sold up until now was legit and this is all new to him, he's known for years that people have raised some concerns because they've done so directly with him!

Its worth noting that Frank has actually defended Jeff in the past and/or given him the benefit of the doubt too, so this is nothing personal. I think when the volume of fakes increased and it became apparent that they all traced back to Jeff, frustration set in and an urge to warn the community become Franks number one priority..and here we are.

Sure, you can blame Frank for the wrong choice of words in his original post, you can blame him for the way he presented the evidence, you can even blame him for jumping the gun or putting a "good bloke" like Jeff in the firing line but at some point you have to stop and think.. If there weren't people like Frank out there, people that cared so much about a particular area of our great hobby that they would put their own reputation (and in this case their own collection..that's the sound of the baggie market collapsing btw) on the line just to stop others falling foul of some sellers counterfeit items, then every single one of you would be up **** creek without a paddle. Totally unaware of the legitimacy of the items in your own collection, proudly displaying your billy boy samples, pristine Toni mocs..or some of Jeff's Baggies.


If it had only been one dodgy item returned or one issue raised we wouldn't be here doing this 25+ pages later but its clearly not and it includes all kinds of bagged variations from Kenner to palitoy and even Meccano's.

Do I think he's making the counterfeit baggies himself? Honestly I'm still undecided and realistically its unlikely that we will ever know but even if he isn't the guy cranking these out he IS still the one selling them. These have been sent out to unsuspecting buyers and collectors around the world for a good few years and as a seasoned collector/dealer he has to know what he's selling, end of. There is no excuse for passing on that many dodgy figures, none whatsoever..so please don't try to find one for him just because you've shared a smile and a hello with him at a convention.


I'm glad to see more evidence being found and brought into the thread, especially by those who are using their time to investigate his past sales and listings on worthpoint etc.

At this point it's safe to say that he's guilty of selling fakes. He's also guilty of selling on fakes that he's been told weren't quite right and now hes guilty of telling few white lies about what he's sold or hasn't sold.. However this came out, I'm glad it did and I sincerely hope every single baggie collector is reading this and taking note.

Hey Joe, you mention your surprise at the way the community responded when the story broke; the community responded in exactly the way that I have come to expect this community to respond. When someone is very publicly called out and accused very explicitly of faking baggies and knowingly distributing fake baggies, but any tangible evidence to support this claim is absent, the community questioned it. Try to look at it from the point of view of someone not involved in the investigation; all we got from that first post on Tuesday evening was essentially baseless accusations and a shitload of pictures of fake baggies. The collective of accusers didn't fare any better on Wednesday and Thursday due to some backtracking around the accusations, and it wasn't until Friday that we actually really started to see some tangible evidence. Had the original post included evidence (similar to that presented on Friday) alongside the less sensationalised but ultimately more provable accusations, then I believe that this thread would have looked a whole lot different.

That said, I don't think I've seen a single person being negative about the investigation itself and the phenomenal amount of work that has gone into it - to have people so dedicated and safeguarding the hobby is just brilliant and thoroughly appreciated!

 

[CARTS2]

Hello.....

First time ......comment....excuse format (I'm on the phone and this is what we use at work) and general mistakes ie spelling and grammar

Firstly....I would like to set the scene.... I'm one of those whom is part of the group whom looked at/investigated a number baggies and other items that Jeff sold off, mainly in the last of couple of years...which were deemed in general ...fake...

I have just read through all the pages here and seen the conflict, often between long time friends over this issue (almost saga now)....I'm not a desktop warrior as I read somewhere here but my job does mean I have to be a warrior occasionally......the investigation was set out not to destroy someone credibility but to save what many considered a grave injustice going on, right infront of our noses.....it would have been easy for Frank and the rest of the boys just to roll over and ignore....very easy.......in the end, what does Frank and the group get out of this, apart from helping out the community .....nothing... helping fellow collectors is the No 1 aim.....followed closely by educating them.....and where applicable, if you have had dealing with Jeff, to check their/your collection.......

Could it have been dealt with differently and therefore better???? sure ....there are lessons to be learnt....for sure......

Before this investigation, I have done a number of transactions with Jeff, indeed many thousands of pounds/dolllars worth....My area of focus is not exactly baggies but packs/mailers but have bought a number of baggies off Jeff to complete those packs/mailers at times... most of my buys were complete and/or sealed packs/mailers and none of the baggies identified. I have been offered plenty of items from Jeff, looking back now, that I'm so glad I didn't buy ie the trilogo fett mailer (which he suddenly had a large amount of but prior to, there was only small amount ever found, anywhere).. I considered Jeff a good guy to deal with prior to this investigation and infact thats a general consensus, including Frank..... but I would also classify him as what we call down under, a bit "dodgy" at times. What do I think of Jeff now??? not sure to be honest .....properly disappointment more than anything I guess....the sad thing for me is I often linked his sales to friends to buy (he's trustworthy and recommended by me so they bought) and it has come back to haunt me with a number being found to be fake....and the main reason why I joined the investigation group....

Additionally, I consider I'm very good friends with Frank (He may think otherwise lol) ....He one of the best people I have EVER come across in any of the forums'......he goes out of his way again and again and again to help out me any others whom want help or advice....His job and position is often, no, 99% self-less ....and this investigation, like the baggies/mailer guide attached to your website is testament to his amazing dedication .....and knowledge...

One point that I think is missing and could and properly will lead to a lot more fakes being found in the future is many baggie collectors simply don't grade and rely on the integrity of the seller (with often limited knowledge themselves)........it seems a lot people here just assume most baggies get graded and I strongly believe its just the opposite....the vast majority have not been graded and therefore AFA , UKG or the new guy CAS, have not had an opportunity to reject any possible fakes .....its only when the examples like what's on this topic ie the Trilogo Fett baggies were examined/graded, that it was rejected.....could have easy sat in someone collection and the collector knows no different....ignorance is bliss is the term... ....its a great strategy from Jeff, only give money back if its proven to be fake....and even then, no bad comments on ebay as the issue has been resolved.....He can't lose in the end using this system...unless the system is identified....

i appreciate the opportunity to talk....

cheers

Shane

 

[darth_daddius]

Wow,

I've been looking after family over the holidays and not really looked at SWFUK much for a few weeks, otherwise I would have posted earlier. I noticed a Boba Fett ESB-b baggie on ebay in November last year with a buy now or best offer auction and contacted the seller (Jeff) with an offer. He told me that the one he had up for auction had sold, but that he had another one coming in. In later emails he said that it had come in 2 days prior to selling it to me. When I got it, and said it was a fake, Jeff replied on 30 Nov 16 that "other than notice it was a bit worn, did not note anything odd with it".

Here is the baggie:

It probably looks familiar by now. Jeff sent me a small picture with a Palitoy-K IG88 (that was OK) through ebay and with that and his feedback, we came to a deal outside of ebay. It was only when it arrived, that I realised it didn't look good. I also had a Bossk in the same baggie type and it didn't match up with that either. I have to admit, Jeff was very easy to deal with in getting my money back (although I had to pay for registered postage from Aust to the UK), but it all worked out in the end.

The problem is that if I read the previous posts correctly, he has had this type of Boba baggie before and known they were off. He then told me that he got this only two days before selling to me, which doesn't seem right as he has had the exact same dodgy Fett baggie before - and known they were dodgy.

I hope this helps. As I say, I got my money back and he was very good about that. But it seems he knew that it wasn't right and still sold it to me saying he "did not note anything odd with it". That seems a bit thin now.

Good on you Frank for having the care (and courage) to highlight this for others.

Cheers
Pat

 

[Richard_H]

Yes, I agree with Lom. This is what we should have had 3 days ago. This is what supports the OP. I have received a lot of messages bashing me - can anyone post a single quote where I have said he is innocent? Can anyone post a single quote where I've said he's too nice (insert any word you wish) to be doing any wrong? Can anyone post a single quote where I said he is not guilty / exonerated?

I can quote posts where I said he has sold fakes. I can quote posts where I have thanked those involved in the investigation. I can quote posts where I have said Frank (IMO) is the baggie expert and I value his opinion over AFA (and I will add any other person in the community too). I consider Frank a mate and we've been in FB chat a lot. He doesn't agree with the podcast and that's totally fine with me. It's his opinion.

I will say again. Nothing posted until yesterday was concrete and was entirely circumstantial to me (and a hell of a lot of others.) There was no way I was going to destroy a guys reputation due to this. It's not who I am and I'm proud of that.

It is no good sitting on a huge pile of evidence (gathered over months and shared between a few), release some of it and expect us to see what you saw.

I must admit, the attitude of some is now questioning my role in this hobby. Some people are upset I (more than me) didn't immediately join the pitch fork brigade and destroy him. Look at TT. How long did it take for the hunt for start? Jason had a hell of a lot of questions to answer before he was believed. The watch out threads were not updated for jeff. Where was the help for the community there? I've been quoted above from the podcast where I asked him direct questions about selling fake baggies. I did not shy away from anything, nor did the other 2.

This has always been my pov:

He has sold fake baggies.
I would like to see him at FF to help identify what he has done and he can explain / refund / do whatever to make it right for the community

This is now my pov based on yesterday's evidence:
as above +
He has sold baggies he was told was fake

And that is because I have now seen the evidence.

If some people don't like that. Fine. I don't care who I lose as a friend. At the moment I don't care if I get booted from here. This last 3 or 4 days (and especially messages I've received on FB) has changed this forum for me. I will not EVER join the witch hunt unless I see sufficient evidence to join. Don't cry if I don't share your point of view.

And I'll say it again. Huge thanks to Frank (and everyone else) who has exposed this. It is very much appreciated. The time you invest in the community is appreciated and I have heavily leant on you when I've needed to for advice. Overall this has not been handled well, but the intentions were there.

 

[Jez]

I would quote Loms post replying to Joe above but suffice to say this is exactly how I feel about it.

There is now plenty of evidence coming in. It's not looking good. Lots of 'holes in the Swiss cheese' lining up now. With the amount of examples that have come up light in the last 24 hours it looks like this story has turned a new chapter.

There has been some clever investigation work over the last few days coupled with more people (buyers) coming out of the wood work. To have this in one place on this forum has been an excellent idea.
You guys might have this in the bag (gie)

 

[Richard_H]

Sorry, will also say I appreciate the support that I have had too. Very welcome and I'm glad some people could see my pov from the off.

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

Rich and the podcast boys, your only failing in this is being too nice! That is who you guys are and don't change, nobody expected Jeremy Paxman!

The interview was very gentle, and it allowed Jeff to ramble away with broad generalised answers. But the one time you did stick him with a specific question about the red text baggies you actually drew a response from him that could be cross checked and proven to be a lie - so the interview was instrumental in uncovering the truth.

Hope you boys keep doing what you're doing - it is massively appreciated - entertaining and contributing to the community and the hobby!

 

[Richard_H]

Thanks Matt. We had to be careful, didn't want him to hang up.

If anyone wants to reply may be better in pm. Would serve better to keep this thread clean now to study evidence from other thread.

 

[Caswellbot]

I'm sorry to hear that you have been receiving snotty messages rich. That's totally not on. Im really surprised and disappointed to hear that. I dont know who would do that but I think it's clear your heart is very much in the right place as was the intentions of all the podcast crew when they conducted the interview.

Its very true that yesterday more concrete evidence came to light in terms of physically being able to paper trail certain items back to Jeff and in terms of discrediting some of the things he had been saying.

Its also true that I'm sure many people jumped on the bandwagon in blaming Jeff without the level of evidence we have now.

I can only speak for my self when I say this but I personally felt that there was already enough in that first post by Frank to make me think that Jeff was up to no good. Call it intuition or whatever but it really didn't add up.

This is franks accusations statement in the first post. He does clearly express that it is his "opinion" from the get go. He also clearly states that he feels that if Jeff isn't making them then he is heavily involved in selling them:

"As far as we can tell Jeff has been doing this for a long time (minimum 4 years), IMO making fake baggies / resealing genuine baggie with swapped out figures & has over that time been improving & trying to perfect those fakes, if he is not making them himself then he is heavily involved in selling them as nearly all examples that we have confirmed trace back to him either directly or indirectly, many baggie types have been confirmed to have been affected, though it would seem that as time has gone on & Jeff has become more confident in his deception & fraud the higher the ratio of fakes to genuine baggies he has been selling, this has to stop & stop now, hence me & the other guys involved wanting to make this pubic"

With it being franks opinion based on research he had done and links he had made I felt that it was a justified post. It was clear that they had some very good circumstantial evidence in that first post alone. Since that first post, more has come to light and links have been made back to historic examples/ watch outs but what I'm trying to say is that the first post was needed in order to get the ball rolling in bringing other points and evidence in. Yeah maybe it was like pulling off a plaster slowly rather than whipping it off but at least it is off now and hopefully things can move forward.

Seriously though the bashing of the podcast team is not cool guys whoever has done that. It was an almost impossible task that they did and we should recognise that they were in their hearts trying to do the community a service. In terms of pardoning Jeff, I personally don't think they did. I saw it as a group of nice guys trying to end the interview in as positive a way as possible given the circumstances .

 

[andrewneo17]

I must start by qualifying I am a newly registered member of this forum though part of the initial investigation team. It has taken me a while to get on here due to work commitments and trying to get up to speed with the torrent of posts.
Kudos to Frank, Edd, Mike and some of the other guys for taking flak for calling it out as it is. There are many in the investigation group whom are passionate about baggies and don't stand to gain other than to see a clean up for the good of the hobby.

My dealings with Jeff started late last year when he listed a SW-a Han Solo and Lando on Ebay. I wrote to him offline to secure a deal for both, of which we now obviously know are fake.
Not long after I went on to buy another 3 baggies from Jeff, a ESB-c Yoda, ESB-f Han and a Pal k (or rotj-j) Tusken Raider. As my location is in Singapore, I requested Jeff to send them to Frank instead. He did for the Yoda and Han but funnily enough (at that point), he chose to send the Tusken Raider to me in Singapore instead which obviously cost him 3 times more. I remarked at that time to Frank why would somebody do that. That kicked off my suspicion and upon having the baggie in hand, conferred with Frank and we pretty much came to a consensus the TR was a fake as did the Sw-a Han and Lando (of which both these were sent directly to me as I paid for the international postage). On the other hand, sure enough the ESB-f Han and ESB-c that were sent to Frank were legit.

I will leave it to the group to make their own conclusions whether Jeff intended this all. I highly suspect he knows what he is doing, picking specific baggies to send to Frank and what not to, to avoid being called out.

 

[edd_jedi]

First of all I would like to say sorry to Rich and the podcast guys if they have received abuse for their interview. People may not agree with them doing it just like some people do not agree with Frank making the initial post, but everybody here is trying to help so nobody should be receiving personal attacks. It has caused a division of opinion but I very much hope it doesn't ruin any friendships or put anybody off the forum, there are plenty of supporters on both sides and as Marc Hockley famously sang, "don't shoot the messenger!" We all know this conversation would not have worked on Facebook, it had to happen somewhere more permanent. If you want proof of that, check the post in the 12 back group today from the guy who can't be bothered to read this thread and wants the digest, typical Facebook attitude.

There has been a good comparison to TT - the reason some of this evidence was not posted sooner is simply because we didn't have it. Frank knew that making the post would bring new information out of the woodwork, it has. I wish people had given it more time after the initial post before jumping to conclusions.

I would like to retract my statement that the podcast hasn't helped. Without it we wouldn't have Jeff's denial of selling the red text baggies.

 

[edd_jedi]

Although this is just a theory, I also think the recent posts by the other accusers discredit Jeff's claim in the podcast that there is no financial incentive for either selling or potentially making fake baggies. Andrew's example above, two loose figures worth a total of £30 are suddenly worth £500+ when in the correct baggie type. The blue Fetts Frank posted, £750+ each for figures worth £100 loose. Palitoy Yak Face baggies, £400+ for £100 figures. Saying there is no financial incentive here is nonsense regardless of how well off you are.

 

[Richard_H]

Thanks Edd.

Totally agree there is an incentive in some cases to fake baggies.

I was talking to someone yesterday who has fake baggies that he has bought from Jeff. He is not going to claim a refund because loose they're worth the same. In Edds example that is a clear reason.

 

[Caswellbot]

I was thinking the same with the pbp Rebel soldier

 

[edd_jedi]

I was thinking the same with the pbp Rebel soldier

Yes good point, 2 grand for a £200 figure. Even Alan Sugar would be interested in those margins!

 

[palitoyjunky]

Wow just so much to digest :!:

Obviously the great thing shown in all of this terrible corruption is the fantastic goodness and passion in our SW community :!:

I am sorry to hear of our beloved podcast team taking some stick-THAT WAS BANG OUT OF ORDER :!: :!:

I really feel for all the Baggie collectors out there(some real friends among u) and am v sad when I think about what destruction this evil has done to the Baggie market

I hope all the perpetrators end up paying big time in every way :!: :!: :!:

 

[maxf]

Thanks Edd.

Totally agree there is an incentive in some cases to fake baggies.

I was talking to someone yesterday who has fake baggies that he has bought from Jeff. He is not going to claim a refund because loose they're worth the same. In Edds example that is a clear reason.

Don't forget we've seen a huge spike in loose figure prices. A loose figure may be worth the cost of a baggie today, if the baggie was bought before the spike - but I don't think he sold many baggies as loose prices at that time.

 

[lee gray]

Obviously Frank and others involved ha e done a great job and Jeff is guilty of wrong doings

As others had said if the first post had shown a message to jeff that his red label figures were fake and he said ok i will take them out of circulation then a month later theres proof he still sold them, EVERYONE would have said hes a scammer and alot of bickering mght not have happened and this thread would be just 4 pages long lol

 

[spoons]

Sad to hear anyone is giving anyone else grief over this. I thought the interview was ill advised but all credit to the guys for trying to get both sides of the story.

Three days ago it's fair enough to generalise that the lack of evidence meant that some people did find the initial post distasteful, and that friends of Jeff thought the best of him.

Others saw this as just another watch out thread and assumed that Frank and the guys wouldn't make these claims without good reason.

With the latest posts I don't think there is any doubt that Jeff is selling baggies he knows are questionable. Unfortunately the 'Fett to order' sales and 'fakes straight to Singapore' makes it look like he's the source of those fakes. I really hope he's just a bit dishonest rather than the Toy Toni of the baggie world.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jeff is full of ****. He's lied on the podcast about selling fake baggies that he has been told are fake. And he has been trying to do it without Frank finding out given the latest posts in this thread.

Jason

 

[palitoyjunky]

Am thinking the nx FF show will b a Baggie free zone :?

 

[Andyclarke]

This is a truly shocking state of affairs, which after following the TT scandal is even more deplorable. I feel sorry for the victims of this fraud, it's just plain greed.

 

[laurencedyer]

I will add more substance to my inclusion in the coming day's as I have not been well the last week or so but thought it important to add this communication at this current point in time.

Whilst finalising my Baggie run and trying to acquire the last four baggies in December 2015 I was after a Fett and Jeff sent this image of these different Fetts available.
The Big Pick had not long happened and the Vader Case with the never had been seen complete set o ESB - b baggies came to light so naturally I was keen on the Fett.

Jeff had stated in the correspondence below that this was the only one and that he had and that he had had this for over 5 year's but now he has had a supply of illegitimate looking ESB - b Fett baggies for sale this year.

These where never previously in his collection from what he stated so where have they come from?

IMAG0291 (1).jpg

Screenshot_2017-01-13-09-08-40.png

Apologies for not being fully on this and Edd single handedly fighting our side yesterday but I have been unwell all week and had to have a full on accounts review in the day so couldn't support anything to then get home to find my house bloody burgled :evil:

Anyhow.

Jeff tells me in 2015 thay he has one last Palitoy i open Yak baggie, this statement I believe.

I try to negotiate the price naturally and he advised me he will keep his Yak, fair enough.

Jeff then at a later point tells me he couldn't initially find his Yak but had finally been able to find it and sends me the image's. These are correct for this known baggie type and he confirmed it was his last one.

Now all of this I am of the opinion was true at the time, but since then and similarly to the ESB-B Fetts there has been a demand in these rarer baggies with the one on the opening thread being one of the latest creations. This baggie type that has been created using a Palitoy a baggie. Seeing this baggie type highlighted raised grave concerns and also lead to Jeff contacting Frank just before Christmas as he knew that Frank was aware of it. Jeff told Frank that he thought that last 17 figures came in that baggie type which can only lead to speculation that he had them made to order. In my opinion and that is all it is with no firm proof baggies are being created as per the Yak and ESB-B Fetts for financial gain. Jeff may only be a front man in all of this but we need to find out where and by whom these baggies are being created by.

 

[Richard_H]

That is a good point Laurence. Where are these coming from? We need an audit trail and only one person can supply that.

 

[laurencedyer]

I have taken this post directly from the investigation group rather than retype it out but it demonstrates the timescale incorrect baggies have been coming from this source.
I have had to omit/edit a small section of the response I recieved as it was of a personal nature and would be wrong of me to publish that although nothing with regards to the item or it's sourcing.

Right guys, I had a moment of embarrassment earlier this year when I sold a Han Pin Head SW-a baggie to our very own Andrew Neo. It was the first interaction I had had with him and he asked me to send the item to Frank so he could send it to UKG for grading.Frank popped around and collected it on his weekend excersion to Leicester and UKG then was planning to collect it two weeks later.
Frank met Steve 2 weeks later and Steve told Frank that he had failed the item for grading due to several reasons. There was a little tape slip on the baggie but millimeters and nothing to out of the ordinary for a near fourty year old baggie. He also mentioned that he thought the figure had a spot of paint rub on one arm although I cannot see this with my bare eye. The most notable thing for failing the baggie for grading was that the figure was packed with a black blaster and that Han came with a blue one. Frank and I first thought that a mispacked / weapons error baggie must be worth more until Steve clarified that the only figure to come with a black blater was Han Tranch, a Jedi figure not available until 1983 so therfore the baggie must be fake.
This obviously left me embarased and I felt my repetation had been jepordised although Andrew Neo has been the most understanding and honourable gentleman and has been patient whilst I delayed paying him back as I had used the cash.

Anyway, I've been two busy to go back to the buyer (who is a reputable trader mainly on Facebook especially in Tatooine) and challenge him until now with this investigation prompting me and asked him wher he got it from and this was his reply. Surprise surprise where this goes back to.

"Laurence not ignoring you, Star Wars is off my radar at the moment. I'm gonna check my graded one later. This came from Geoff glandville over 4 years ago."

Now the surprising thing with this responce is the timescale, over 4 years ago. How many of these things have been put out into the market that are good enough to fool the likes of this guy ( long time collector and trader), Frank and I. I'm wondering if this goes a lot deeper than just Jeff and if there is a global ring of scammer creating these. People each side of the pond.

 

[laurencedyer]

That is a good point Laurence. Where are these coming from? We need an audit trail and only one person can supply that.

The ESB - b Fett baggie that turned up in the Big Pick was one of the finds of the batch along with the other other ESB - b baggies in the case to the point that they where not for sale and Chris kept them for his own collection due to there rarity. As demonstrated before in the previous evidence thread with regards to the ESB-b Fett, Jeff had one in his own collection and that at the time I believe to be a true and honest statement. This latest supply chain coming out over the last 12 month's is all sorts of wrong. Hence the accusations of being made in the initial post. These 1000 baggies in his collection did not include these so there is a supply chain coming from somewhere.

 

[itfciain]

Three days ago it's fair enough to generalise that the lack of evidence meant that some people did find the initial post distasteful, and that friends of Jeff thought the best of him

Not really made much of a comment regarding this - but I agree 100% with Spoons - initial post was sensationalist - and if as suggested designed to bring out more evidence, then very risky. I think the Podcast boys felt the same way that a lot of us did and went to help the person that they perceived wasn't being treated fairly - they are all really good guys and if they are getting any abuse then it should stop

I think that the balance of evidence now available proves that at best Jeff was selling baggies after being told that they were not right - either by Frank and the other guys in the OP or just by customer returns. There is also plenty of evidence to suggest that he was buying to sell - if you are doing this then you have to be 100% confident in what you are selling. If you sell 10 of one item and 3 people return them to you saying that you are fake then you can not assume that the other 7 think they aren't - you must stop selling them until you are 100% sure.

If Jeff is now getting 100s of return requests then this is of his own doing - poor business practices will often lead to poor business performance.