I've wanted to comment earlier but stuck at work and unable to.
Bootyhunter said:
It seems to me that some of you guys are going to stand by Jeff regardless
Not at all; if i see someone who isn't able to defend himself, get the **** kicked out of him by a group of guys, I'll do my best as a human being to intervene. It's will be likely that we are all gonna get hurt but at least my conscience will be clear. That's what separates us from the animals.
Regardless of who they are or what they may or may not have done, you don't just watch someone bleed.
I've not been in the collecting world for that long all things considered. The only big scandal I've seen is the TT scandal which was an entirely different kettle of fish as clearly explained by others.
No one has come out of this well: Jeff, Frank, Edd, (the entire accusation team), SWFUK, The Vintage Rebellion, the collecting community, all those who initially picked up the pitch forks, no one. This is all kinds of awful. I feel sick, I dare say most people do too.
I am sure that some people will think that this is irrecoverable and the forum won't be the same. It is recoverable and the forum will endure. Our love of the hobby is causing us to clash, our love for the hobby will also ultimately shine through and we will get through this. A bumpy ride but we will get there.
My 2ps worth.
Yes, the way this was initially presented was awful.
Yes, Jeff was accused of being a manufacturer of fake baggies.
The OP original unedited post:
"as far as we can tell Jeff has been doing this for a long time (minimum 4 years), IMO making fake baggies / resealing genuine baggies with swapped out figures & has over that time been improving and trying to perfect those fakes"Yes, the podcast interview wasn't perfect. We had about 5/10 minutes to prepare. We tried our best to give the 'guilty man' a platform. We asked questions, most were questions from this thread.
Yes, there will always be fakes. Yes, there will always be doubt.
Yes, this has split our beloved community and yes I'm bloody gutted about that.
Yes, this was released whilst one of Jeff's biggest friends in the community was knowingly out of the country and on holiday. Maybe this was a shrewd chess play move, maybe it was a coincidence?
Yes, we are now seeing some screen shots and apparent evidence coming to light. It's odd that this wasn't in the OP. It appears that there are now more and more things coming out of the woodwork. I am keen to learn more.
Yes, there is evidence of these Red tape baggies being sold on Ebay (from feedback). It could be possible that these were sold before Jeff offered one to Frank? Not sure if we will ever know.
Yes this whole thing stinks and I have no doubt that dodgy baggies have been sold by Jeff. Knowingly or unwittingly I do not know. Only one man does.
That's obviously fake!!"We see only what we know" a science quote from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Yes there is a lot of doubt over some of the ink quality, spacing, smudges etc. I see that. Just like now I can see an iron mark on an early TT which would have gone unnoticed beforehand. Now we have had it pointed out in big images we can easily see some of the 'obvious' issues. Yeah I totally see that some of these baggies are shockingly bad (home made).
Yes, Frank is upset about the Podcast. Sorry Frank, but that wasn't your choice. Much like Jeff didn't have a choice when you started this thread. You can't throw a hand grenade into a room then dictate where the blast will and won't go.
Yes, I think Jeff should come on to this thread. Anyone can join a forum.
Yes, we were hoping to have a Podcast Part 2 to match our Part 1. It appears that this is incredibly unlikely.
I have a question. Have any baggies come to light with a QC sticker?
Yes MOCs had a QC check. Show me a baggie with a QC sticker; I'm really keen to see one. Why are we so sure that these baggie types which differ so much aren't just different baggie types, different stamps etc. Did kenner etc really give a dam over the quality of these baggies? After all they were just sent in the post etc. maybe we give more of a monkeys about them than Kenner did. There aren't any baggie proofs or Cromalins as far as I'm aware.
There have been lots of keyboard warriors on here, especially initially. Lots of brave people, but having said that, you'd have to be blessed with pretty big balls to go to at least 4 Farthest From events and deliberately sell fake baggies to some of the most knowledgeable collectors in the business. Maybe, just maybe, all you are guilty of is being a bit unorganised, a bit naïve and a bit careless. Maybe you don't give a dam about other people. Maybe you have just been very clever. I just don't know.
I have no doubt that some of these baggies are fake. I have no doubt that Jeff has sold some.
To what extent I don't know.
What i do know is i liked Jeff when i met him just like i liked Frank when i met him. But this isn't about liking people.
What i do know, is you should never ever ever make libellous acquisitions in a public arena without having a watertight business case. The OP was wrong. That's one of the big things which immediately separated the community.
The whole community became divided because of the poor initial post. Regardless of the outcome, and I will stay tuned with interest, I am glad that we gave Jeff a platform to rapidly reply.
We will get through this.
