It's official - who likes or dislikes Star Wars.... Interesting read

monkey_roo

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Just finished reading this article: https://www.jeditemplearchives.com/2023-03-30-how-much-do-people-actually-like-disney-star-wars/

Well worth a few mins - I am not sure there is anything too surprising - except maybe the stat that indicates the biggest Fan segment is now those that grew up on the Prequels...

I do agree with the overall sentiment that Disney/LucasFilm should be at least mildly concerned here and maybe this in known to them and the reason behind the zero film offering right now...
 

Twin30mm

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No big surprise. Star Wars is a dying brand.
The viewing figures for Andor and Mando seem to bear this out. The lack of merchandise in the stores is also a worrying indicator.

Disneys ideology, coupled with poor creative decisions has crippled the franchise.
They should be concerned, but have they the gumption to right the sinking ship?
I think not. Not under the current regime.
Sad times.
 

monkey_roo

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It does baffle me how the same company can broadly get it so right with their Marvel slate and so not-quite-right with their Star Wars slate.
 

Hod10

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A lot of people seem to moan about Disney Star Wars. However, they are subscribed to Disney Plus and watch it. It can't be that bad. It's a mixed bag. I enjoyed the sequels, especially Force Awakens. Thought Rogue One was great.
 

Twin30mm

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I watch D+ through a relatives account, so no subscription from me.

I think the 'moaning' stems from frustration of the mishandling of a once great franchise.

What was once an 'event' cinema experience, has been reduced to a tab on a mediocre streaming service.

We all want the best for SW and I think it's right to call out Disney when they produce subpar product or disrespect the fanbase.

On the flipside, it's right to sing their praises when they produce something good (R1, Andor etc.).

Disneys business model was flawed from the start, whether by ideology or incompetence.
The number of cancelled projects (up to 12 apparently) would suggest more of the latter.

Unfortunately, judging by that survey, the business model is failing and it's all coming home to roost.
 

monkey_roo

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for me it comes down to World Building.

Disney traditionally don't really do that (odd to say when you think about it) but - all their films (while building worlds within themselves) are stand-alone and sequels or franchises are almost accidental or as a result of commercial success - they are not mapped out from day 1.

Where-as both Star Wars and Marvel are entire Story Universes - all interconnected with a cannon to follow - very different creative approaches are needed.

I think for Marvel - since they essentially created that Cinema/TV universes from scratch (not quite as there was Agents of Shield and the Netflix shows etc.) and they had a single individual pulling the strings from day one - that joined up - planned out and carefully executed approach shines through.

With SW they bought it and just tried to claw their purchase price back on day one - the films were not joined up (R1 and Solo are still the best two films they have made) and the TV shows outside of the animated world are disjointed - basically there was/is no master plan and creatively killing off the heroes and showing a post Empire Universe that is as bad if not worse than the empire makes you wander what the rebellion achieved - basically a lot of jumbled thoughts.

Don't get me wrong - within the films and shows there have been enjoyable momements and overall I don't think anything is 'bad' - Mando is fun, when the BB focuses on the A plot is is fantastic, Andor is one of the best shows on the platform and Obi-Wan was very enjoyable - but it just doesn't connect.

For me they do need to pause all SW work and sit down and map out a big multi-year plan that thinks how characters interact/crossover and what good v bad there is and go from there.

There is plenty of life in the universe and I think now they have killed of Skywalker and friends they have a chance to clean slate things. I am sure I read that was something they were looking at anyway - but who knows.
 

Twin30mm

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for me it comes down to World Building.

I think you're spot on, regarding the world building and Disney taking on a franchise that they didn't create.

SW needs a singular vision, as per Lucas' OT/PT and Feige's MCU (Phase 1-3).
Kennedy/Lucasfilm just weren't up to the job.
The fan-baiting after they were justifiably called out, just worsened the situation.

Disney rushed into SW, hoping to to recoup their outlay as quickly as possible.
They must have thought that the fanbase would accept anything with the the SW logo slapped on it.
Whilst this worked initially, it became blatantly obvious after The Last Jedi that they were making it up as they went along.

Hopefully, the hiatus in SW movies is a sign that Disney have learnt their lesson and will concentrate on quality over quantity.

Although, if the rumours regarding a Rey/Grogu movie are proved to be true, I genuinely fear for Star Wars future.
 

Snaketibe

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The problems with Disney Star Wars start and stop with Kathleen Kennedy. By her own admission, she isn't a Star Wars fan (who knew, eh? :rolleyes:), but she is a political ideologue hellbent on inserting her particular views and opinions into a franchise which has hitherto, quite rightly, been politically neutral. George Lucas may be Left-wing politically, but he wisely made Star Wars for everyone. That makes for not only good entertainment, but good business sense too.

I'll say this much for KK, she must be one hell of a good actress to fool poor old George all those years such that he actually thought his company would be safe in her vandalising hands! Nothing could be further from the truth of course, and once in charge under Disney's ownership, she immediately set about transforming Star Wars into an identity political, steaming pile of woke garbage, devoid of originality, good writing and storytelling, that utterly disrespected the established canon / lore, the franchise as a whole (shitcanning the EU anyone?), the characters (killing Han and leaving Luke all but out of TFA, not reuniting Luke, Han and Leia on screen, character assassinating Luke Skywalker and then actually assassinating Luke Skywalker in the simply inexcusably execrable TLJ, 'Retiring' the character of Princess Leia as Jabba's Prisoner... The list goes on and on).

KK also publicly trumpeted that 'The Force is Female' ('The Force is F*cked' would have been more accurate; Star Wars is and always has been for anyone and everyone that likes it, be they male, female, young, old, black, white or anything else. It wasn't previously NOT for females, so why try to deliberately feminise it now?), and set about hiring politically similar female non-fans into Lucasfilm, and then set them loose via the Lucasfilm Story Group and tasked them, not with pleasing the fans, but with pleasing themselves. And they did this across all licences under Lucasfilm's control; Willow is dead, Star Wars is on life support and Indiana Jones is being led into the slaughterhouse even as we speak.

With hindsight, the fact that 'Rogue One' turned out to be good can only have been more by luck than judgement, especially since by all accounts it was very much saved in the edit. At the time we neither noticed nor cared that the casting was deliberately ultra-woke with the only white males in the entire film being villains (naturally), because the story was great and it actually looked and felt like Star Wars. However, whoever it was that cared enough as a Star Wars fan to save that film was presumably sadly let go, or at any rate was either nowhere near or not able to repeat the feat with subsequent films, and hence the care disappeared, but the wokeness remained strongly in Force (pun intended).

'The Mandalorian' seems to have slipped under KK's radar since she had her hands full making Rey the BESTEST EVARRR in the sequel trilogy at the time, and hence Jon Favreau (a true Star Wars fan) was able to create something enjoyable, albeit on a smaller scale. The fans liked it, and hence so did Iger, who effectively gave Jon a large amount of control over his show, which is why KK wasn't able to wreck season 2 immediately. However, the hugely successful return of Luke Skywalker at the end of season 2 riled KK quite gargantuanly, such that she searched for a way to scupper Favreau's plans, and successfully found it when she grotesquely unjustly fired Gina Carano quite literally for no good reason, lying about her and libelling her in the process!

By all accounts KK then tried her best to undermine 'The Book of Boba Fett', and had far greater creative control over the simply appalling 'Obi-Wan Kenobi'. With those two duds having disappointed fans (TBOBF had its moments - especially the 2 Mandalorian episodes crowbarred into it by Favreau to try to salvage something from the train wreck made of his work by KK and Robert Rodriguez - but was otherwise not really very good), few were prepared to give 'Andor' a chance, which is of course a shame as it's actually very good. And hence, given all that, combined with the 2-year gap between seasons 2 and 3, and with Disney clearly insisting Grogu be returned to the show for purely merchandising reasons, and especially with the thoroughly nasty taste of Gina Carano's firing still fresh in everyone's mouths, is it any wonder Mando season 3 has lost a ton of viewers?

In short, KK is quite extraordinarily talentless and incompetent at her job, losing or costing Disney billions of dollars in lost revenue and production overruns on virtually every project she has touched (don't even get me started on the Hindenberg-in-waiting of 'The Acolyte'). Her non-Midas touch is legendary, yet her status as a famous and supposedly successful female Hollywood producer has shielded her for years from cries that the Empress isn't wearing any clothes. Just about the only thing her titanic ego has made her good at is self-inserting into every film project she's overseen; a petite, white, brunette female, albeit an English one (presumably she either wants to be English or likes them more / thinks they're more sophisticated than American actresses; Daisy Ridley, Felicity Jones, Emilia Clarke and Phoebe Waller-Bridge in the upcoming looks-like-it's-going-to-be-supercrap 'Indy 5').

She is a complete and utter disaster for Disney, and whilst Disney as a whole has lurched to the left politically thanks to Bob Iger's appointments and hires under his previous reign as CEO, Lucasfilm has been especially guilty of not giving the long-suffering fans what they actually want. Marvel had a good run before Phase Bore of the M-She-U, Pixar and Disney Animation have previously made a string of classics prior to their dreadful and money-haemorrhaging woke fayre of recent years, yet Star Wars is still firmly in the red from its $4 billion purchase.

Until Kennedy gets the boot, I can't see anything changing.
 

grinchy

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A good read, personally i'm a fan of Disney, i like the sequels, not as much as the OT, but i enjoy them, not really a fan of what they did to Luke and Han, but i can accept it, i actually like Kathleen kennedy, she is and has been a great producer over the years, clearly some people take issue with her, but not me
 

monkey_roo

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I don't think for a second that anyone involved in any SW films/shows (Or anyone involved in any film/show etc.) sets out to do anything other than their very best - and from experience I can say folks who work on content are typically passionate, driven and obviously highly creative.

Kathleen Kennedy has been involved in a lot of films over many, many decades (check out her CV - it is insane) - so I think she knows her way around the industry and story telling and so forth. The big difference is Disney - Again I have no issue with Disney at all - love so much of what they produce - but... When you spend 4 Billion on something there is an insane amount of pressure to start clawing that back - and there will have been (still are?) lots of voices in the mix with a lot of different perspectives and that unfortunately can cause issues with the final output - and that could be the case here - just too many voices and too many different directions - I mean if it is true that Disney insisted Guru came back just to sell more toys - that sucks creatively, as it makes no sense, but now the story tellers need to work around that etc.

If you think about it - the start of the MCU had literally zero expectations - Marvel were using second string characters/IP (since they had given away their tops stuff, Spiderman to Sony, X-Men to Fox), the Hulk movie had tanked (unfairly as it was far better than it was ever given credit for) and back then, Iron Man and pals were not the household names they are today. so there was likely less oversight and interference etc. so that single voice and direction was allowed to grow and then when it was a smash hit there was no need to change anything or a great argument to not change anything.

The SW universe needs a single voice at the top with a clear vision if it is to flourish... It doesn't need to be Skywalker and Palapatine or even Rebels and Empire - but it does need to be mapped out - I mean, Would it have been too hard to sit down and write draft scripts for all three sequel films at the start to at least thread the story together as one - it was just too rushed and once it was all going it was just too hard to stop - I hope they learn from that and frankly just copy what George did back in the 70's...

Although on the Disney side of things - I do wish they hadn't have killed off the EU and all the years of stories and characters etc. I get why they did it from a commercial perspective, but wish they hadn't. At least we are seeing a few of those characters finding their way into the Disney cannon and under the Marvel banner they are reprinting all the old comics, which were Darkhorse back in the day, although I see Darkhorse have a licence to create SW comics again - maybe another money driven decision that will create more of a muddle...
 

Cazza

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A good read, personally i'm a fan of Disney, i like the sequels, not as much as the OT, but i enjoy them, not really a fan of what they did to Luke and Han, but i can accept it, i actually like Kathleen kennedy, she is and has been a great producer over the years, clearly some people take issue with her, but not me
I feel exactly the same.
 

Cazza

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I don't think for a second that anyone involved in any SW films/shows (Or anyone involved in any film/show etc.) sets out to do anything other than their very best - and from experience I can say folks who work on content are typically passionate, driven and obviously highly creative.

Kathleen Kennedy has been involved in a lot of films over many, many decades (check out her CV - it is insane) - so I think she knows her way around the industry and story telling and so forth. The big difference is Disney - Again I have no issue with Disney at all - love so much of what they produce - but... When you spend 4 Billion on something there is an insane amount of pressure to start clawing that back - and there will have been (still are?) lots of voices in the mix with a lot of different perspectives and that unfortunately can cause issues with the final output - and that could be the case here - just too many voices and too many different directions - I mean if it is true that Disney insisted Guru came back just to sell more toys - that sucks creatively, as it makes no sense, but now the story tellers need to work around that etc.

If you think about it - the start of the MCU had literally zero expectations - Marvel were using second string characters/IP (since they had given away their tops stuff, Spiderman to Sony, X-Men to Fox), the Hulk movie had tanked (unfairly as it was far better than it was ever given credit for) and back then, Iron Man and pals were not the household names they are today. so there was likely less oversight and interference etc. so that single voice and direction was allowed to grow and then when it was a smash hit there was no need to change anything or a great argument to not change anything.

The SW universe needs a single voice at the top with a clear vision if it is to flourish... It doesn't need to be Skywalker and Palapatine or even Rebels and Empire - but it does need to be mapped out - I mean, Would it have been too hard to sit down and write draft scripts for all three sequel films at the start to at least thread the story together as one - it was just too rushed and once it was all going it was just too hard to stop - I hope they learn from that and frankly just copy what George did back in the 70's...

Although on the Disney side of things - I do wish they hadn't have killed off the EU and all the years of stories and characters etc. I get why they did it from a commercial perspective, but wish they hadn't. At least we are seeing a few of those characters finding their way into the Disney cannon and under the Marvel banner they are reprinting all the old comics, which were Darkhorse back in the day, although I see Darkhorse have a licence to create SW comics again - maybe another money driven decision that will create more of a muddle...
Great Post, mate. I totally agree. Love the sequels (especially TFA), but wish they'd mapped it all out properly- could've been mind-blowing.
 

Snaketibe

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Kennedy's CV as a producer may look impressive, but the overwhelming majority of 'her' successes were actually Steven Spielberg and George Lucas' successes. It's easy to look good when working with a mega-talent like Spielberg. Perhaps she has some modicum of ability to follow the instructions and wishes of others when working for them, but when left to her own devices we get Disney Lucasfilm. It's rather telling that Spielberg politely declined to direct Indiana Jones 5, that being the first Indy film he hasn't directed and the first one KK has had total control over as head of Lucasfilm...
 

Mosh

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No big surprise. Star Wars is a dying brand.
The viewing figures for Andor and Mando seem to bear this out. The lack of merchandise in the stores is also a worrying indicator.

Disneys ideology, coupled with poor creative decisions has crippled the franchise.
They should be concerned, but have they the gumption to right the sinking ship?
I think not. Not under the current regime.
Sad times.
I think Disney has enough money to feed the franchise with: I would not think the brand is dead. I just wonder how their chain of command is, that they cannot discern when a movie or series is lame before approving its release.
 

monkey_roo

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Sadly I am not sure Disney do have the money - sure they are far from broke - but they are a company with a fair few problems right now.

Ignoring what is going on in Florida where they appear to be at war with the state itself. Revenue may be up thanks mainly to avatar and strong park returns, but earnings are down around 30%. Chapek made a lot of changes quickly back in 2020 which unsettled the company and now Iger is having to address that and restructur again.

I am sure I read Disney+ while having good growth has still lost the company around 4Billion and subs will have to go up and more pay models being looked at - which could have an adverse effect on viewer numbers - when you look at Neilson numbers for the US Disney shows aren't really making an impact except for Bluey - kids love that dog - and technically it isn't even Disney content - it's acquired) - Netflix dominates the streaming charts.

All of this impacts their creative slate - it is one big organism and if too much of it is hurting there isn't the funding to spend years developing story worlds and in fact other IPs are fighting for a smaller pot (Toys Story 5, Frozen 3 all announced etc.) - There will be more SW in all forms, no question - but will Disney learn from their mistakes or will they crank out film or show at a time and look for each to hit a mark before moving on to the next etc.

Incidentally they should look at Paramount and how they are treating Star Trek - Picard is exceptional and exactly how a beloved cast/characters should be treated - IMO :)
 

Snaketibe

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Incidentally they should look at Paramount and how they are treating Star Trek - Picard is exceptional and exactly how a beloved cast/characters should be treated - IMO :)
I don't agree with everything you've said, but I certainly agree with you about Picard season 3. After the weird disappointments of seasons 1 & 2 (and for that matter, practically the whole of Kurtzman Trek), season 3 shows what can be done when you put someone in charge (Terry Matalas) who is not only competent at their job, but is also a true and knowledgeable fan of the franchise. Season 3 is great, and I only wish the first 2 seasons had been as good.
 

naughtyjedi

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I believe star wars 'story wise' is on the right track. All series have been referring to the empire cloning force users to bring back Palpatine. That throw away pulp line in TROS is literally explaining it. Bit silly, but there we go, Its now a meme. I think we are getting the Stan Lee Marvel inclusion box in the corner. [see filoni-Favreau verse kids- Stan]

I do believe, as with Marvel, and how Bob Iger shot himself in the arse last night, these are not franchises to mess with, over imposing current political ideologies and employing woefully under prepared progressive writing teams. They risk losing the traditional fans with too much self insert (see the totally forgotten reva) and that ignores the 46 years of fan dedication which fuels and drives the next 2 or 3 generations.

Whilst Boba Fett was a mess, I still enjoyed it overall. Kenobi was always unnecessary even before it happened. Still fun, but it felt they were trying too hard to not upset established lore. And it always felt apologetic.

Like a lot of media, lucasfilm and Disney do appear to be hugging the left side of twitter too much and it's getting them into trouble. The film Lightyear was a perfect example. You can't mess with an animation. It's 5 years of development and production down the pan. That film was utter bilge, deconstructing a character that didn't need anything other than a fun jovial heroic space romp. Thankfully it bombed, as did the next animated film. Two big losses like that and the drop off of marvel phase 4.
The direction all these properties have taken appears to be the same. Destroy the male lead and replace with superior female alternative. Whilst nothing wrong with that in isolation, it's now an unexciting trope.
Hulk emasculated, She-hulk better
Thor, Jane Thor better,
Iron man dead, iron heart so much better
Black panther, shuri better
Hawkeye, new female Hawkeye better
Loki, female Loki better
Not seen new Antman.. But I believe Antman daughter is in it.. Probably better

My point is, from the top of lucasfilm they appear to be stuck creatively. A company of that size appears to want to take less risks and regurgitates what worked before whilst slapping on a prettier face.

Andor was a true original creative piece because lucasfilm allowed a creative to make what he wanted to make. I'm hoping acolyte will be similar.

I remember joking years ago that if anything, all the new stuff makes the prequel trilogy look like a masterpiece. Whilst JarJar is still ****, there is some truth to that.

Overall I am happy we have new content coming as I so desired it as a kid, I just hope the powers to be would find that unique, interesting and Quality voice somewhere, whether its in writing, directing or production. But I feel these areas are not employing true creatives but hiring on other aspects.
 

monkey_roo

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Well with todays announcement we will get to see what lessons have been learnt...

A new trilogy of films all about Rey.... + two new stand alone movies, the most interesting of which is the Dave Filoni Mandoverse event...
 

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