Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

[Joe]

The aim of this thread is for all the evidence and factual information about Toni and his carded figures to be presented in the same place, if anything of importance is missed please let me know so I can update the thread. It would be appreciated if people could post their findings in this thread as opposed to the other one if possible.

Jason Joiner's claims/supporting evidence & Toni's defense:

Initial claim:

Thats correct they came from Arthur Bailie he bought around 25,000 figures bubbles and cards i was in on the deal and tried to buy the lot of Arthur but lost out to Toni , i think Toni bought them for around £10K , i know at one point Arthur was trying to buy figures as he had cards but no figures to put on them , what i really wanted was a set of the cards unused for myself but that never happened, i used to see Toni place ads in model mart though out the 90s and early 2000s selling these figures, he said to me once that he had found a way t heat the bubbles and attach them to the cards in the same way they did at the factory i think he may have even gone to a factory to have them put on the cards, i have never really gone for these German cards as i felt they were not relay finished figures, somewhere have a complete brake down of all the cards , there was also around 2000 carded figures that came in at the same time as Arthur bought the cards , i bought 500 carded hoth troopers on ROTJ cards and also around 700 Boba fett figures on ROTJ cards also , i sold the 700 to Crage Steven's a collator in Romford who when he got them opened them all that was around 1988 ish i think ? anyway there you go some more history

Followed by Toni's first reply:

Several friends have contacted me regarding a post by a certain Jason Joiner and having read his "story" I feel its necessary to reply.
This story is mainly fantasy with a few facts thrown in.
As a one time major dealer and expert in Star Wars it is bizarre that after some 25 years Mr Joiner should now come up with this "information" out of the blue!
I have been dealing in many different types of vintage toys for over 30 years including Star Wars for about 25 years . Ive been on Ebay since 1998 and have had 2 websites Toytoni and Zoomertoys running for the last 16 years. I have not seen or had any communication with Mr Joiner for the best of 20 years nor have I heard of him making such comments elsewhere.
I did indeed buy various toys from a dealer called Arthur in the 80s and early 90s these included tin toys , robots, TV related and carded Star Wars figures. He had a reputation for getting old stock and had good contacts in the regular toy trade. He was one of several dealers that I bought carded Star Wars from. He seemed a nice guy who seemed always short of cash and often offered items which he didn't exactly have but could get his hands on if he could make the sale in advance .So at times it wasn't clear if he actually had the goods or just new a man who had them .
I do remember there indeed was a list of items which included unused cards but these never materialised I never saw any or was offered any samples from him . I ended up buying quite large quantities of carded figures from him which were a mix of Kenner ,POTF,Palitoy.,german General Mills and Trilogo non of which came in trade boxes - in those days there wasn't that much interest in carded figures let alone in the outer boxes.
The fact that there was this list stirred up some gossip at the time about unused cards but as to whether they existed is unknown. Mr Joiner claims there were many thousands and yet he couldn't get his hands on a single example from this Arthur dealer despite buying 500 carded Hothtroopers ? and a staggering 700 carded Fetts???- what utter nonsense !He claims the Fetts were then mysteriously taken off the cards - why would someone cut up 700 carded Fetts - more nonsense- we really are in the realms of fantasy here . What happened to the 500 carded hothtroopers? Where are these 1000s of factory cards? Mr Joiners assertions that I was claiming I was going to some factory to get bubbles sealed is total fantasy .
Arthur on several occasions told me that he thoroughly disliked Mr Joiner ( as did many others- normally mild mannered guys threatening him with physical violence on several occasions at toyfairs ) so its highly unlikely that he exactly would confide in him about the details of what he had, what he kept and who he sold what to who.
I suppose it is possible that he had been offered unused cards or even had some but I have completely lost touch with Arthur since he went on to other things and have had no contact with him for over 10 years.
I hope this clarifies things if any one has any general questions Im happy to reply but please dont expect me to remember details of exactly who did or said what over 20 years ago!.
Toni

PS
As far as the seal on the General Mills and Palitoys- its generally accepted that most Palitoy Esb and Rotj have smooth seals as do the German issues which were made in the UK .
As far as ESB style bubbles on ROTJ cards is concerned this is also not that unusual although rectangular bubbles are the norm ESB style bubbles were used on ROTJ cards both Palitoy/German and Kenner .I hope that clarifies those points .

The following is part of the original list Jason Joiner said proved the existence of unused cards/bubbles and figures which was handwritten by Arthur Bailey, the dealer that Toni bought from.

The handwriting on the list matches a business document that Arthur had written on and signed for a company "Xceptional Limited":

Both Arthur and Toni were listed as directors of Xceptional Limited however Toni had this to say about his involvement in that company:

Mr Bailey contacted me with a request for help regarding web development and possible finance as he wanted to devlop a site similar to what is now ABE books but for toys - I had mentioned that I had contacts in web deveopment in a conversation we had had and at the time designing and building webisites was a pretty complex and specialised business. I said I would look into it but I didnt want it having anything to do with my toy business as a sole trader. So he suggested that he could register a company and if anything came of the project it could be run through that-I said OK sent him whatever it was £50 or so signed a form that he sent me and that was it.I made a few preliminary enquiries but nothing came of the idea it was just a name on the company register he may have continued payments to keep the name registered I have no idea .End of story.

Since that last comment was posted Toni has not commented on the thread however he has recently replied to Jason Smith via email:

His (TT) response about 20 mins ago:-

"hi Jason I got you previous email and I do totally understand you comments .These items are important to collectors and mean a lot to them . I am sorry about what is happening in that community .Basically Im overwhelemed by all this .regards Toni"

While he doesn't deny or admit anything, he does seem to be apologising to the community.

Ebay observations:

It came to light that Toni has an active second ebay account which he uses to purchase mint (sometimes "off the card" mint) figures as well as U graded figures.

The ebay ID history shows that Toni's second account name has been changed 30 times.


Card observations:

Mattias noted a few flaws on the unused Palitoy backing cards that perfectly match the carded versions sold by Toni.

Ok, maybe not solid evidence. But for someone who has quite much knowledge in the packaging design and printing-industry, the following facts doesn't speak in ToyToni's favor. This has been know by me for quite some time but I've never compared Toni's moc's and the unused cardbacks with cardbacks/moc's from childhood collections. Let me try to explain.

I own an unused Palitoy C-3PO cardback. I bought a carded Palitoy C-3PO from ToyToni years ago so that I could compare them to see if there was any differences between the two (just to rule out that the unused cardbacks were proof cards). They were identical. And with the latest knowledge and rumours, they are TOO IDENTICAL. The unused cardback AND the Moc from ToyToni both have two big flaws that would have been corrected before making the final printing. They both have:
1. A magenta (pink) dot under the nameplate. This was caused by dirt on the printing plate, which is to 99.9% removed by the printer. And if he misses it, the print batch is likely rejected by the QC department or a few (which could be some hundreds) slips through by mistake.
2. Registration error. One of the printing plates hasn't been placed correctly, which creates a glap in the printing colors. This is also a thing any printer would fix before printing the whole batch.

The two things above doesn't show on the childhood cardbacks and moc's Ive seen. So the unused cardback and moc from ToyToni are from the exact same printing batch. The cardback with price sticker is from a later or corrected print batch. What does this mean? In my world it actually means that the cards with the magenta dot (dirt on the printing plate) and the color registration error was FROM THE SAME STACK OF CARDS, either rejected by the Palitoy QC department or just left overs from the factory when they closed down. And the probability that the unused carcback and the moc from ToyToni just by coincidence have these two defects while others (which don't come from Tonis don't) lacks these defects/mistakes.

I have a very busy weekend and wanted to take more time to explain it better, but I thought it was more important to get it out. I'd be happy to answer questions and try to explain some things better if it doesnt make sense. Like I said first in the post, this is not solid proof, but the chances things like this would only happen on the stuff Toni has, are almost none imo.


I'd like to recieve pics of more of the unused cardbacks that are around, so that I closely can inspect and compare to ToyTonis carded and the ones from childhood collections. So if you have any please email me at rendahl[AT]echobase.nu

Mattias

Bubble observations:

Chris's write up and pictures of the figures Jason Joiner brought to FF4, these are apparently figures that originally came from ToyToni although as of yet that is not confirmed, it does however appear to show that *someone* at some point in time was trying to perfect the process of sealing a bubble to a card.

Hi guys, obviously a lot of folk have been down at the FF4 event today but it seems this thread has been romping on. Today was a busy day at Fordingbridge. It was great to meet up with a lot of collectors and talk all things vintage. Jason Joiner brought along some very interesting carded figures which he says were bought by a collector in Coventry who bought them from Toytoni at a toy fair at Donnington Park. Grant (Maulster) may be able to verify this in time as he is in contact with someone who knows the person who alledgedly bought these from Toni. Hopefully he can confirm whether or not what Jason is saying is verifiable.

For now at least, they are proof that someone at some point was definitely trying to seal these cards with limited success. A number of methods have been used of varying qualities. I will try to highlight a few of these methods. There were 17 cards in total and I took photos of nearly all of them. There was also an ESB GM 45 Back Hammerhead which had come clean off the card leaving a bubble (with spray adhesive on it) and a virtually mint cardback which I cant believe I missed photographing although this was 45 min photograph session! I would like to add that of the 17 cards we looked at about 4 looked like they might be ok. The rest were either like frankenstein experiments or near forgeries of the real seal.

Spray Mount - Spray Adhesive Method? ESB Leia General Mills 45 back (Blue Blaster?) Notice the mottled texture under the seal of the bubble indicating the use of a spray adhesive. The back of the card is perfectly flat. It doesnt look like any pressure/ machine was used to bond the bubble to the card.

037 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

038 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

039 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

040 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

041 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

042 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

043 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Iron Method? Palitoy ROTJ Pale Blue Fett - Palitoy 65 Back - (Printing alignment error on card.) Note the dragging scuffs of the card which move away from the bubble in an upwards diagonal movement. There is also a triangle shaped indent in between the twin stem of the bubble which gave birth to the idea that this may have been done with a normal household iron. (Diagnosis courtesy of Lee Bullock) The puckering around the bubble also suggests uneven heating.

066 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

067 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

068 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

069 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

071 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Also Iron Method? Hoth Trooper Palitoy 65 Back - same scuff marks as the Fett. Malheated bubble. Also check the area around the hanger tab where it looks like there is an indent of another hanger tab where another card was resting on top. V shaped imprint at stem.

077 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

078 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

080 by Caswell2009, on Flickr


Brush on Adhesive Method? Boba Fett Pale Blue - ROTJ 65 Palitoy Back - The glue looks different on this. It is not speckled/ mottled like the leia and instead looks like it may have been applied with a brush? Its a bit of a messy job as there are traces of glue residue smeared around the cardback. Glue couldnt be used to stick the twin stem area at the bottom so again it looks like an iron was used.

090 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

091 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

093 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

094 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

095 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Dare I say it, this one looked ok? 2-1-B Metallic Version GM 45 Back. Better cleaner seal which looked crystal clear. The black underneath the card actually looked black. There is also evidence of pressure being applied to the back of the card to seal the card and bubble.

072 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

073 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

074 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

076 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Please click on any of the photos to enlarge and see the other photos of all the cards.

Hi Guys,

Here is the result of a previous work i done on the matter.
I checked all my ESB MOC and loose ESB cardback(Palitoy, Parker and Clipper) and i think i found the way to descard, at least, one category of Toni's "Mock-Up".

"Single Stem" bubbles on ESB 45 back cards

All my Palitoy, Parker and Clipper cards, that have or had a "Single Stem" bubble, have those bubble marked with a number from 01 to 015
For example :

"01" and "03" AT-AT Commander, Bespin Security Guard
"02" Cloud Car Pilot
"03" Leia Organa Bespin
"04" Han Solo Original
"012" Death Star Droid
"013" Tie Fighter Pilot
"015" C-3PO Removable Limbs

Again, none of my 50+ cardbacks(ESB45bk) with "Single Stem" Bubble has unmarket bubble. It's also the case with my 7 "single Stem" MOC's.

That strongly makes me suggest that all unmarked "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO'S made by Toni.

Let me know what you think guys...

JC

Figure observations:

Oli has high res pictures of all of the figures Toni has recently bought on ebay under his second account and is urging anyone who has bought a carded figure from Toni in the last 30 or so days to contact him with pictures. This is super important and may put the issue to bed if a match is found!

AFA Population report and estimated numbers of figures involved:

Although not a perfect indication of how many figures Toni has sold over the years Lee Gray checked the toygrader website to see the amount of Palitoy and GM figures in circulation that have been graded by AFA.

And to help get a better grasp on the amount of suspect figures out there Jason compiled the following list with the help of Wolfgang:

This is the interpreted JJ list with input from me and Wolfgang looking at what is for sale on toytoni.com and the rarity
of palitoy/german ESB figures to better categorise what unused carbacks were in the lot. It's not definitive, but best
educated guess. Cards listed as a single lot which are obviously palitoy/german or clipper/german are split 50/50
in the absence of any other info.

cheers Jason


Clipper ESB

72* Rebel Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
69+ Hammerhead
56+ Walrusman
11+ Dengar

General Mills ESB

563 Han Hoth
526 Stormtrooper
500* Bossk
357 C3PO Removable Limbs
320 AT-AT Driver
318 Bespin Security Guard Black
276 IG88
268 21B
194 Han Solo
171 R2D2 Sensorscope
166 Leia Bespin
162 Han Bespin
138 Ben Kenobi
118 Power Droid
85 Yoda
73* Rebel Commander
70 AT-AT Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
66* Chewbacca
50 Leia Hoth
36 Rebel Soldier
26 FX-7
25 Princess Leia
11 R5D4

General Mills ROTJ

30 Cloud Car Pilot
6^ Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot


Palitoy ESB

500* Bossk
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot
66* Chewbacca

Palitoy ROTJ

1234 C3PO Removable Limbs
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper
885 Luke Skywalker
482 Boba Fett
467 Lobot
417 Death Star Droid
301 21B
143 Chewbacca
132 Luke Bespin
105 Luke Hoth
86 Lando Skiff Guard
81 Logray
60 Squid Head
47 Han Solo
39 AT-AT Driver
31 Gamorrean Guard
30 Leia Boussh
27 AT-AT Commander
12 Yoda
8 Cloud Car Pilot

*Both palitoy & clipper or german & clipper offered on toytoni.com, so a 50/50 split assumed rather than assuming all are german
+Clipper not listed, but offered on toytoni.com, no german figure offered
^Palitoy variation not known to exist, assumed to be german which does exist

cheers Jason

 

[Joe]

I haven't had the time tonight to go back through the entire thread to pull out the important parts so if anyone has the time and feels like helping, please post links or quotes in this thread of stuff you think I have missed or is important enough to be discussed further in this thread.

Will put them in the first post.

Many thanks guys!

Also - please do use this for discussion on everything to do with Toni's stuff, bubbles, figures, cards etc - I will try to monitor this thread as much as possible so we keep it on track.

 

[panastur]

 

[panastur]

Hi Guys,

Here is the result of a previous work i done on the matter.
I checked all my ESB MOC and loose ESB cardback(Palitoy, Parker and Clipper) and i think i found the way to descard, at least, one category of Toni's "Mock-Up".

"Single Stem" bubbles on ESB 45 back cards

All my Palitoy, Parker and Clipper cards, that have or had a "Single Stem" bubble, have those bubble marked with a number from 01 to 015
For example :

"01" and "03" AT-AT Commander, Bespin Security Guard
"02" Cloud Car Pilot
"03" Leia Organa Bespin
"04" Han Solo Original
"012" Death Star Droid
"013" Tie Fighter Pilot
"015" C-3PO Removable Limbs

Again, none of my 50+ cardbacks(ESB45bk) with "Single Stem" Bubble has unmarket bubble. It's also the case with my 7 "single Stem" MOC's.

That strongly makes me suggest that all unmarked "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO'S made by Toni.

Let me know what you think guys...

JC

 

[spoons]

A great post JC

Do you have numbered double stem bubbles? I have a shop bought pal 45b with an unnumbered double stem bubble, but was happy that all single stems should be numbered

Lee there is no issue with Palitoy SW cards having unnumbered bubbles, as Kenner also only used them after the 41 backs, my Pal 30 and 41 backs are unnumbered so the theory works.

 

[panastur]

Hi Panastur

I could be wrong and I don't know if this is the thread for discussion, but I'm pretty certain that Palitoy single stem bubbles have no numbers on them. The 12 and 20 backs I had never did.

Lee

Hi Lee,

As Spoons said, there's no issue with the previous Palitoy cardbacks. Before the ESB 45 bk "B" (no-logo), all action figures were packaged in the Far-East with their own style of bubble.

Here, we are only talking about Palitoy ESB 45 back "B", Clipper and Parker ESB 45 back's... all blistered by Palitoy in its factory of Coalville.(...that's we all thought till now. :? )

It's now clear that, at the beginning, Toni had a lot of these original "Single Stem" numbered bubbles. But Toni used them to make seal tests with glue, iron and what ever he used to seal them. Once Toni ran off these bubbles, he made a new batch of them, but this time without marking...and all defects that now appears on these repro bubbles.

...so we can clearly attest that ALL UNMARKED ESB 45 BACK "B" SINGLE STEM BUBBLE ARE TONI's FORGET CARDS WITH A REPRO BUBBLE.

...¿¿¿or did someone have a genuine unmarked SSBubble ESB 45 back "B" with a vintage price sticker on it??? I doubt not... :roll:

JC

 

[panastur]

 

[spoons]

Fantastic JC - that is the wide 'waffle' seal I've been trying to describe

It's also seen on single stemmed uk 45b cardbacks but not UK double stems

 

[panastur]

Don't know if it's the right place but...

Respect the C3PO RL on Jedi 65bk sold by Toni, ¿Did anybody noticed that the no-stem bubble used on this figure is way too thick and rigid??? I just compared TT C3PO and a loose cardback (seal present) with the same kind of bubble and the thickness of TT bubble is twice the thickness of the genuine one...

¿Did these TT bubble were made thicker to avoid consenquence of heat in the sealing process???

JC :shock:

 

[jedisearcher]

JC,

I can also confirm that my 45b Bossk has the number 03 on it and the horizontal waffle pattern. Your method of identifying them is very helpful, thanks

Chris

 

[panastur]

JC,

I can also confirm that my 45b Bossk has the number 03 on it and the horizontal waffle pattern. Your method of identifying them is very helpful, thanks

Chris

Thank you Chris, that's good to have other confirmed examples other than mine.

"03" Bossk

JC

 

[wbobafett]

I can confirm "01" on Luke Bespin if it helps. Have a look at Wolfgangs archive:
http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/german_esb/German_ESB_General_Mills_Luke_Skywalker_%28Bespin_Fatigues%29_c&titel=German_ESB_General_Mills_Luke_Skywalker_%28Bespin_Fatigues%29

JC my friend, I have two questions:

1. Do you think the numbers were in the blisters before heatsealing (to identify the blisters for the workers), or were impressed while the heatsealing (to identify from which working stations these came)

2. Your deatil pics of the "03" show a dimple near the "0"...is that correct? Are these three different cards or the same number pictured three times??

 

[wbobafett]

First post on how spotting some of the originals!

Some German double stem 45 backs have a crescent flaw on the top of the blister seal. These are 100% real as the examples show below (found and used German cradbacks):

Comparison original factory sealed Boba Fett and his loose cardback counterpart:

More loose cardbacks (German 45 backs):

The pictures are taken from Mike_Skywalker and Wolfgang Schlögel. (Fett copyright: MrPalitoy)

Thanks guys....I hope I am free to show them here!


Wolff

 

[wbobafett]

I watched the Palitoy vid over and over again! Suddenly I had an idea today!

I seem to have found out sth. very interesting!


Mirco has an album full with scanned German 45 backs:
http://s487.photobucket.com/user/mike-skywalker/library/ESB%20German%2045%20Cardbacks?sort=6&page=1

I also used Wolfgangs site for reference:
http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German%20ESB%20Figures

I concentrated on the ripped of "only" cardbacks. The used ones with creases, stickers and unpacked!

So time to watch closely at the pictures:

You will notice following from the sealing process:


1. There is PINS holding the cardbacks in place!

2. There is "forms" for the blisters that can probably swapped and changed (single stem, double stem, different sizes etc.)

If you combine these two very important facts you can conclude the following:
The bubble all have the same axis (middle/centre) compared to the cards! That means the middle of the bubble always is in the same place regarding the cardbacks!

Toni did different....he usually middled the bubbles (at least a bid...not really accurate) to the colored shaped form the figure is placed on.

What do I have to proof this:

Going through all cardbacks from Mirco and Wolfgang, ALL have the same in comon: The middle/centre axis is nearly in the exact in the same place!!!! (of course some are a tiny bit more left or right).
This axis can be spotted well regarding the ESB LOGO. If you check the farest point to the left from the logo were the black border ends (or starts coming from the left) you have your axis!
Of course the cardbacks are cut different....so its only a vague hint!!!

Here is some examples:

Again...I could proof this on ALL those cardbacks, no matter which character, bubble type etc!



havent much pictures to compare MOCs, but I can already tell you that some Bossks (remeber...there was 1000s on the published list) I have checked are FAR AWAY from this axis!

Coincidence?? I dont think so!!

What do guys think??


I really would like Mirco, Wolfgang and Panastur checking theirs for some kind of pattern! Again in short:
The middle/centre axis of all bubbles has the same (nearly) distance to the boarder of the cardback. The fakes are different because they are more middled to the colored background were the figure is placed on!


I leave it to the guys now which have some originals in hand, but IMO this could be a key! *fingers crossed*

 

[panastur]

I can confirm "01" on Luke Bespin if it helps. Have a look at Wolfgangs archive:
http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/german_esb/German_ESB_General_Mills_Luke_Skywalker_%28Bespin_Fatigues%29_c&titel=German_ESB_General_Mills_Luke_Skywalker_%28Bespin_Fatigues%29

JC my friend, I have two questions:

1. Do you think the numbers were in the blisters before heatsealing (to identify the blisters for the workers), or were impressed while the heatsealing (to identify from which working stations these came)

2. Your deatil pics of the "03" show a dimple near the "0"...is that correct? Are these three different cards or the same number pictured three times??

Hi my friend,

1. I asked this question to myself before posting and i have to recognize that i had doubt if it was made before when forming the bubble or made during the seal process.... But, since a lot of "forget" cards appeared with these numbres "smashed" with an iron like tool, there's no doubt they were made with the bubble and not during the sealing. It's clear the person who had these bubbles used them as "Test" sealing till he ran out of them.

The number is carved "in" the bubble. If it was made during the seal process, the card would suffered more than it was and the number would appaers also carved in the carback.... and this is not the case. The number just still unsealed and maks the cardback this way.

2. The "03" pictures are from the same figure. The dimple is just an imperfection of the carving... It's a bad example but it was the clearer to show the number.

well, just my thoughts...

JC

 

[panastur]

First post on how spotting some of the originals!

Some German double stem 45 backs have a crescent flaw on the top of the blister seal. These are 100% real as the examples show below (found and used German cradbacks):

Comparison original factory sealed Boba Fett and his loose cardback counterpart:

More loose cardbacks (German 45 backs):

The pictures are taken from Mike_Skywalker and Wolfgang Schlögel. (Fett copyright: MrPalitoy)

Thanks guys....I hope I am free to show them here!


Wolff

Hi Wolff,

That's a good point proving some MOC are genuine. Unfortunately, this flaw don't appears on all "genuine" Double-Stem bubbles.
Also, i have Palitoy ESB 45 back cardbacks with the same seal flaw... maybe made in the same batch.

Very curious... :shock:

JC

 

[sandtrooper-5]

45 Palitoy backcard

 

[mr_palitoy]

Used german cardbacks (am one short of a full set). Most are off center to the right of the coloured bubble area. A couple are off center to the left and a couple are centered over the bubble.

German Toni MOC double stem 2-1b. So many tells now. Bubble is centered over the coloured bubble area. Missing circle at top of bubble. Smooth seal instead of thin lined waffled seal.
I also have a used 2-1b german cardback with the remains of the double stem bubble still attached, and it is wider than the double stem bubble that Toni uses and is centered to the right
of the coloured bubble area.

German Toni MOC single stem 2-1b. Bubble is centered over the coloured bubble area. Smooth seal instead of thin lined waffled seal.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Further german card analysis requested by Wolllf. Bubble width in millimetres followed by distance from left card edge to center point of bubble.

used cardbacks all without english text on the back unless stated

2-1b double stem 64mm 35mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
r2d2 sensorscope double stem 62mm 35mm
at at commander 62mm 36mm
at at driver double stem 56mm 35mm
bespin security guard black double stem 64mm 37mm
boba fett double stem white circle at top 58mm 35mm
bossk double stem 68mm 36mm
c3p0 removable limbs double stem white circle at top 62mm 37mm
chewbacca 58mm 31mm
cloud car pilot double stem 64mm 36mm
darth vader 60mm 35mm
dengar with english text on the back 82mm 46mm (had some stupidly massive bubble attached to it, and has clear iron prints on it. looks like an early Toni. we have the 11 unused dengar cardbacks down as all clipper currently, i'd at least put a 50/50 split on those in light of this card)
fx7 double stem 64mm 36mm
greed double stem 66mm 37mm
hammerhead 64mm 36mm
han solo double stem 58mm 35mm
han solo be spin double stem white circle at top 64mm 36mm
hans solo both double stem 68mm 34mm
ig88 58mm 33mm
imperial commander double stem 58mm 35mm
imperial stormtrooper double stem hoth 64mm 36mm
imperial tie fighter pilot double stem 68mm 34mm (no thin waffle pattern on remaining bubble and price sticker residue, so maybe not all german cards have the thin line waffle pattern)
land calrissian double stem 62mm 36mm
leia organa both double stem 60mm 35mm
leia organa bespin gown double stem 62mm 35mm
luke double stem 62mm 36mm
luke be spin double stem 64mm 35mm
luke both double stem 64mm 36mm
luke x-wing single stem 50mm 35mm (clear signs that the bubble was ironed on here too, though that card/figure combo isn't on jj's list)
power droid double stem 70mm 35mm
r5d4 double stem 58mm 34mm
rebel commander double stem 54mm 36mm
rebel soldier double stem 64mm 36mm
snaggletooth 60mm 37mm
star destroyer commander white circle at top 58mm 38mm
stormtrooper double stem 64mm 35mm
ugnaught 60mm 38mm
walrusman double stem 66mm 35mm
yoda double stem 60mm 35mm

TOCs (toni on card with english text on the back)
2-1b double stem 58mm 33mm
2-1b single stem 62mm 34mm


Dengar with iron prints:-

Check out that bubble size. 2 iron prints visible. One to the right of Dengars head, the other over the right hand side of the ESB logo.



cheers Jason

 

[wbobafett]

I again checked all the pics I have gathered and searched again the web on FETT on ROTJ 45C!

So this will alll about BOBA FETT ROTJ 45C (Pal)

There is 482 :shock: unused cardbacks on the list that Joiner has posted!

I repost Billy Boys posts from 2003 again!
http://forum.rebelscum.com/t809708/

[Billy_Boy]....

Over a decade ago I truly 'struggled' to find the 'almost fabled' Palitoy RotJ 45 back of the 'Tri-logo' (light blue) Boba Fett...BUT now there are quite a few 'out there'!?!
There is a rumoured 'theory' that many of the remaining figures near the demise of Palitoy in the UK, were carded on to any surplus cardback going?! = The 'Tri-logo' Boba Fett variant certainly would 'fit the bill'! = I didn't originally see an example at retail until late 1984 / early '85?!? So how did it end up on the late 1982 / early '83 45 back?

= Palitoy had a Boba Fett on the Tri-logo card too!

Does anyone know where this 'glut' of European 45 backs actually/specifically came from???

Bill


...and:

[Billy_Boy]Sure!...Not ALL German 45 backs are easy to find!

Far from it in fact! BUT just recently a LOT of 'case fresh' examples have been appearing?!

= Can anyone explain to me why?

ALL the Palitoy RotJ 45 back 'Tri-logo' Boba Fetts that have only recently appeared seem to be in near 'perfect' condition too?!

= Am I the only collector to find this a little 'odd'? + Does anyone have a 'worn' carded example below 'C8'???

Bill

And that is the same question 10 years later:

Has anyone ever seen a lightblue "trilogo" Fett on a worn ROTJ 45C or 65 back??

I haven't!

What I have found:


1. IRONED FETTS

I still doubt these are connected to the same ones we call Toni's now. These are really sloppy...with no sense for where the bubble belongs...etc!!

What is interesting about those:
A. They probably come from the same batch of loose unused cardbacks!
B. The ironed stuff lacks the potential to hold for ever. A lot of have been falling part!
C. MOST important to me is the fact that also lightblue, so called Trilogo Fetts were used for those!!!

What you can see here is one lifted example (to the right) with clear iron marks and the triangular tab between the stem. I also found two loose cardbacks (RS limelight, Ebay). These are 100% ironed examples. One even has the triangular iron mark present below. Both have the blister sealed waaaay to high (compare to the MOC) and both seem to have lifted easily!

Again: Imo these are not from the same creator of the TT MOCs!


2. LEGIT CARDBACKS

It was hard to find some more loose cardbacks but I have found two! These do both NOT MATCH A SINGLE AFA 90 (= TT MOC). They both only have one sealed brother I have found. And this one has a footer and a waffle pattern!

As you can see on the MOC example the thickness of the seal as well as the position is a match! The Moc is Plaitoy ROTJ 45C unpunched. The part of the blister which has flat contact to the cardback is not sealed fully. It is only sealed were the waffle pattern appears and that is a telltale how the "form" must have looked that heatsealed those in factory.
What also can be seen is the lack of a seal in the middle lower bottom. If we look at the carded example, we can conclude that the footer maybe was a tiny bit to thick and at the very lower bottom prevented a correct seal.
But please decide yourself....all three are a total match IMO.



3. QUESTIONABLE CARDBACKS

On all those other casfresh crads I have found not ONE USED LOOSE CADBACK OR A MOC WITH CREASES, PRICESTICKER etc!

Have a look, there is three types:
(please do not take too much attention to the 3-D shape of the bubble...these are mostly photoshopped to compare the card and position of the blister...all in one and the same level...so everything that is 3-d is off...mostly...LOL)


FIRST TYPE: No Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the inner border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

SECOND TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the right. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

THIRD TYPE: Double Stem Blister. All aligned to the white border on the left. With Aligned I mean the outer border of the blister! See the vertical red line!

On the COOs of those: We have mostly "Trilogo" no coo figures on that (like on the ironed ones!!!). We also have small HK, large HK and Taiwan marked Fetts! Is this normal?? I dont know......


Again, all of those cards above are:
A. Minty Mint
B. Punched but never saw a shop (price sticker). Even thou these cards DO exist UNPUNCHED....see the wffle pattern one!
C. Contain a figure that should have appeared way later (Trilogo Fett) and also match the figure examples that were found on the ironed ones!
D. NOT ONE USED LOOSE OR MOC FROM THOSE IS KNOWN!


Anyone else?? I also find it disturbing that there seemed to be always the use of a "refernece line"

Please dig out your loose cardbacks! I really would love to see a ripped and used double stem....

Wolff

PS: Please excuse my spelling

 

[RKW1138]

The following post was either swept under the carpet or lost in all the noise.

Posted by James Simmonds 10/12/13
I've read this thread with great interest and although I haven't posted much before, I thought I would share my experiences about the topics that have been discussed over the past few days.

I've collected Star Wars memorabilia since 1980, firstly as a child and then continuously as a collector since the late 1980s up to the present day. I've attended many, many collectors fair (or swap meets as they used to be called in the late 80s), Star Wars conventions and written articles about Star Wars for many fan publications and magazines such as SFX and Model & Collectors Mart. In 1989, I co-wrote 'The UK Star Wars Memorabilia Guide' fanzine with fellow collector Stephen Nelmes and that led me to become a writer for the UK Star Wars Fan Club – which is how I first got to know Jason Joiner, who ran the club. I first met him in person at a toy fair in Leicester in 1990 and then at many other events over the next few years. During that time I purchased several items from him and traded a few pieces as well and found Jason to be a great guy who I never had any problems with at all. I even got to see one of the well-known grey limbed Hoth Stormtroopers that Jason had at a fair in Oadby back in 1991. As a result, I can confirm that these figures do exist and are not a fan made pieces. The limbs were the same coloured plastic as those on the AT-AT Driver and not painted like I've heard many collectors state over the years.

Anyway, fast forward to 1996 and I'm at one of Jason's events in Cheshunt with my old school friend Chris (who was also a collector at the time). As I'm looking through what seems like hundreds of carded mini action figures on a stall that belongs to Jason I spy a carded ROTJ Palitoy Boba Fett with a £30 price tag on it. I had to do a double take at the price because even back then that price was bargain for a hard to find mini figure, so I immediately ask to buy it. Instead of handing me the Fett that is on display, the guy behind the stall reaches down and pulls out a small box which he opens up to reveal at least half a dozen or so other carded Palitoy Fetts. He hands me one and I pay for it then I go on my way feeling very happy with my purchase. At that moment I just assumed that they were the remainder of a warehouse find of old stock or something like that. However, later on in the day, I'm back in the dealer room and happen to notice that Jason is now behind his stall. As I wander over to take another look at the carded pieces that he has for sale (I was really tempted to buy an ESB Kenner Luke Bespin that was £60), I overhear the guy running the stall saying to Jason that the Fetts were selling like hot cakes. Jason then proceeded to tell him that the Fetts were made up of unused factory bubbles and cards that had been stuck together recently. Well, you can imagine how shocked I felt and it really put a damper on what was otherwise a fantastic day out. Looking back, I should have asked for my money back at the time because I felt ripped off but there you go.

Over the years, I've often wondered how many of the other Fetts sold at this event were still in collectors hands and presumed to be the real deal. Perhaps some of them have even been graded by AFA or UKG? Although I no longer own the figure (I took it off the card a year or so after buying it and gave it to my young cousin when he became interested in Star Wars films following the 1997 re-release) the bubble seal looked fine to me and I would have been none the wiser if I hadn't have overheard Jason's conversation. So, maybe the Fetts were left over from the large amount that Jason mentioned earlier in this thread that he sold to fellow collector Craig Stevens? Why weren't they being sold as cobbled together instead of factory sealed? Perhaps Jason can shed some light on this for me?

Despite this one incident, I still think Jason is a credit to our hobby. Yes, I've heard all of the stories and rumours about him that many others have, but remember that he kept Star Wars fandom in the public eye through the UK fan club and various events at a time when most people just thought that the films and their related toys should be left behind in the 1980s. The vintage hobby would be a different place today without him. So, credit where credit is due.

As far as the Toni thing goes, I'm still on the fence about it. If there has been any post Palitoy assembly of the figures, has anyone considered the possibility that the bubbles have simply been stuck on with some kind of glue? I've purchased a few carded Palitoy figures from Toni over the years (they've always arrived parcelled up in empty wine boxes) but have never had any reason to query their authenticity. He used to advertise them for sale in Model & Collectors Mart for years so I assumed that he had purchased stacks of them decades ago when Palitoy shut up shop. Back in the late 80s, market stalls in the town I grew up in had cases of the little figures for sale as did many discount shops. Three carded mini figures for £1 anyone? That's how tri-logo Paploo, Lumat and Emperor found their way into my collection.

Sorry that this post has gone on a bit but I just wanted to share my story with everyone in light has what has transpired over the last few days. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in the end.

James.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

 

[wbobafett]

Additional stuff on the Palitoy Fetts:

1. Alex has posted another legit example (cardback) over on TIG:

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion

This is again the one with the very small seal area, the waffle pattern one!


2. Another one posted on LG by Spearhead24 (contained a "normal" Fett):

http://www.lichtgeschwindigkeit.de/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9983&start=300

This one is MOSt interesting, because it finally has a double stem blisters and shows us that the third type (double stem, aligned to the left white border) seems to be a possible legit variant. At least some of those could be legit!
I JUST REALIZED: THIS ONE ALSO SEEM TO HAVE THE CRESCENT ON TOP! MAYBE THIS IS REALLY THE KEY ON THE DOUBLE STEMS!?!?!?

DOES ANYONE HAVE A PAL 45C ROTJ BOBA FETT WITH CRESCENT ON DOUBLE STEM???

3. Most interesting I find this finding (pmed by Santrooper-5 on LG)

This is a Palitoy Fett 65 back! You can clearly see that a "tool" for a double stem blister was used! That's why the blister is positioned pretty high.....if you imagine the stems below it would be aligned to the bottom line of the cardback. You can also see that the blister seems to flush on the left.

Now what does that mean?? TT only had a tool made for double stem blisters?? The factory used the wrong tool for that blister?? Any ideas?? I find this most interesting, but I am not sure at all what to think of it!!!

It would also explain an earlier question in this thread why some 45 backs have an edged seal (possibly used tool from trilogo blisters) and some have a round seal to the corners (correct used tool).



4. and last but not least another ironed one:
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/17/02/62/79/dscn6713.jpg

posted by cantina_patron over on TIG (it also contained a Trilogo figure)
http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6544p240-the-general-mills-45-back-palitoy-non-factory-sealed-discussion


Thanks for all the help guys!


Wolff

 

[mr_palitoy]

I've just had my bobas out for the boys.

There are 2 types of ROTJ 45 back cards for Boba Fett:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

The regular 45C has this on the back right hand corner:-

An the 45CG has an added HG afterwards:-

The cards I have are as follows:-

45CG cardback - lots of bubble rip on the front
45C cardback - hardly any imprint of the bubble on the front of the card (likely to be an early reseal that wasn't attcached very well)
45C cardback - name tag cut out, debenhams price sticker, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom
45C cardback - name tag cut out, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom

AFA 90 MOC 45C Light Blue unpainted knee with rectangular bubble

All the cards have a red dot next to the Chewbacca on the back of the card apart from the 45CG. They also all have a slight shifting
on the print of the STAR WARS logo on the front of the card apart from the 45CG.

So I think these particular print errors didn't make any impact on whether the cards made it to market or not.

The bubble placement is the same on the suspected Toni's as on the one's which were shop sold, so I don't think
we can read anything into bubble placements on the card/figure combo either.

If you have a 45CG then it's not one of Tonis.

Can provide photos of any or all cards if required.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Done some daytime analysis and pictures on my bobas.
2 new things I can see in daylight.

1)price sticker residue on the 45CG
2)iron marks at the top of the card on my suspected opened Toni!

top left - 45CG cardback - lots of bubble rip on the front, price sticker residue
top right - 45C cardback - hardly any imprint of the bubble on the front of the card and iron marks at the top of the card (an early Toni that wasn't attached very well)
bottom left - 45C cardback - name tag cut out, debenhams price sticker, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom
bottom right - 45C cardback - name tag cut out, double stem with circle/crescent at top and unglued middle at bottom

And this is a picture of my AFA 90 from ESB/ROTJ AFA 90 Palitoy MOC focus

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

And guess who I bought the boba fett card with iron marks on it from in 2005? Yes, marksing, aka Toni!

I bid on 4 cardbacks:-

You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ESB 45 BACK BOSSK CARDBACK (6007970286)
You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK LUKE BESPIN CARDBACK (6007968883)
You Won eBay Item: PALITOY ROTJ 65 BACK DARTH VADER CARDBACK (6007967337)
eBay Outbid Notice: PALITOY ROTJ 45 BACK BOBA FETT CARDBACK (6007966963)

Then when I'm paying for the 3 I won, I get this:-

"?
hi i have another fett card in similar shape are you interested at your bid if so i can send pic toni"

I then pay for the additional boba fett card as well with a cheque for all 4 (Toni doesnt like taking paypal in 2005)

So, there's proof he's selling ironed cards which the bubbles fell off!

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

And the other 3 cards listed above also have iron marks on them and minimal bubble imprint!



Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

The 65 Back Vader is worrying as it isnt on jj's list. But there are 29 graded 65 back Palitoy Darth Vaders on the AFA population report, so I would put this card on this list too in light
of my Darth Vader cardback with iron marks purchased directly from Toni in 2005.



Jason

 

[spoons]

havent much pictures to compare MOCs, but I can already tell you that some Bossks (remeber...there was 1000s on the published list) I have checked are FAR AWAY from this axis!

Coincidence?? I dont think so!!

What do guys think??


I really would like Mirco, Wolfgang and Panastur checking theirs for some kind of pattern! Again in short:
The middle/centre axis of all bubbles has the same (nearly) distance to the boarder of the cardback. The fakes are different because they are more middled to the colored background were the figure is placed on!


I leave it to the guys now which have some originals in hand, but IMO this could be a key! *fingers crossed*

Hi Wolff,

I'm guessing that is my Bossk with the small sticker tear below Ages 4 (on the left second row) - is this one you think is suspect?

This is a UK Bossk, with 03 bubble, waffle lines and sticker residue, and I'd be amazed if it was fake despite an offset bubble by a mm or so. The GM stormtrooper I have is definitely a fake and the bubble is offset on that, if that's any help.

 

[rob71]

Here are a few pics of the one and only MOC I bought from Tony, consequently I have nothing else to compare to - this went from him straight to UKG and received a modest 80 before it made its way to me.

Some wear here...

Gap distances between the edge of card to edge of bubble (estimate as its in an acrylic coffin)

No waffle pattern on seal, and what appears to be small air bubbles(?)

Pretty bad ghosting on the figure pictures here - as I say I don't have another 45GM to compare to

Not sure if this adds anything new or helps in any way, or what this says for the validity (or otherwise) of this example - hopefully its useful.

 

[RKW1138]

I see the AT-AT driver has the same two dimples at the top of the bubble that wbobafett indicated on two other figures (Bossk & 2-1B. Different bubbles yet the dimples are approx. the same distance from the edge and same angle. Patterns are always good as it means these were produced by the same machine. Whether that machine is legit is still to be proven.

Wbobafett, did you find any more examples?

If we could find shop purchased examples then it would put these in the clear.