Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

jay4 · Jan 24, 2014

Palifan said:
**Delboy75** said:

No jay, no reply from Jason.

Click to expand...

Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian[/quote
hahha you kidding mate . i take it you didnt come across the pile of non answer answers i got from jason when i brought it up here just few pages ago . and like jason said openly then here he would rather not defend himself to me personaly via pm but in public . but in the same hand never did to me nor the question asked by me and dellboy.

jay4 · Jan 24, 2014

jay4 said:
Palifan said:

**Delboy75** said:

No jay, no reply from Jason.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian[/quote
hahha you kidding mate . i take it you didnt come across the pile of non answer answers i got from jason when i brought it up here just few pages ago . and like jason said openly then here he would rather not defend himself to me personaly via pm but in public . but in the same hand never did to me nor the question asked by me and dellboy.

, heres the unanswered question asked

-

**Delboy75** said:
@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.

You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.

Palifan · Jan 24, 2014

Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian[/quote
hahha you kidding mate . i take it you didnt come across the pile of non answer answers i got from jason when i brought it up here just few pages ago . and like jason said openly then here he would rather not defend himself to me personaly via pm but in public . but in the same hand never did to me nor the question asked by me and dellboy.[/quote]
, heres the unanswered question asked

-

**Delboy75** said:
@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.

You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.

I thought JJ answered this by saying that the fetts and troopers came from an earlier deal, before the lot from the list came about (pretty sure that's what he said a while ago but who knows without going back over everything). I also don't think JJ has ever said that Toni sealed those Troopers/Fetts but it does seem like maybe Arthur had a go as I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have originated from the Palitoy factory. Bit of a mystery that up side down bubble unless it was produced in the same place the NZ ones came from?

Ian

jay4 · Jan 24, 2014

Palifan said:
Not sure if you've contacted JJ directly on the email he posted but it might be worth a shot as I'm not sure how much time he's had to check this thread of late. Just a thought (and sorry if you have already tried his personal email).

Ian[/quote
hahha you kidding mate . i take it you didnt come across the pile of non answer answers i got from jason when i brought it up here just few pages ago . and like jason said openly then here he would rather not defend himself to me personaly via pm but in public . but in the same hand never did to me nor the question asked by me and dellboy.

, heres the unanswered question asked

-

**Delboy75** said:
@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.

You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.

I thought JJ answered this by saying that the fetts and troopers came from an earlier deal, before the lot from the list came about (pretty sure that's what he said a while ago but who knows without going back over everything). I also don't think JJ has ever said that Toni sealed those Troopers/Fetts but it does seem like maybe Arthur had a go as I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have originated from the Palitoy factory. Bit of a mystery that up side down bubble unless it was produced in the same place the NZ ones came from?

Ian[/quote]

hi ian

. god knows and i cant be bothered going post hunting either to say what was said by jj :|
and like you say ian maybe arthur did have a go at ironing cards :evil: which would inturn mean jason joiner or TT bought the ironed hoths stormies from arthur like that and sold them on ? no way a big bulk dealer like arthur would have ironed these himselfs and sold off as individuals he dealt in bulk as is obvious .,if arthur did iron these they were passed onto resellers he was trading with in england ie jj or tt ?and whom ever that was must have knew they were reseals

_Lee_ · Jan 24, 2014

panastur said:
Palitoy78 said:

Jason,

Im not saying we should bury our heads in the sand but i dont think we should be banding around information that isnt proven true....

Click to expand...

Hi Palitoy78,

I can understand that, for some people, this big amount of information isn't easy to handle and a bit confusing....but, thanks to Jason "Mr.Palitoy" work and another couple of guys here we can clearly discard a good variety of faked/Forged TT cards.

Summarized, all this work has lead to prove that:

- All unmarked/un-numbered "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO BUBBLES.

- Toni got a stock of "03" Single Stem bubbles, but he used them to improve his sealing method. Bad seal(matted surface) with smashed "03" marking (no relief)

- All square bubbles (no stem) with rigid feeling are REPRO BUBBLES.

All we can do is just to thank all these guys who spend their time and share their info for all of us.

So please, don't give up....!!!

JC :roll:

This is my point.There is no concrete proof there are repro bubbles being used.We cam all summarize but we dont know what he got,and what he used.Its obvious an iron was used but bubbles are tougher to decipher IMO.

By the way,i appreciate all the work Jason puts in.Ive been on this since day one and have kept up to date,and provided one of the most important leads on why i thought TT was up to no good.

Trust me,im gutted as everyone else is.

jedisearcher · Jan 24, 2014

I thought JJ answered this by saying that the fetts and troopers came from an earlier deal, before the lot from the list came about (pretty sure that's what he said a while ago but who knows without going back over everything). I also don't think JJ has ever said that Toni sealed those Troopers/Fetts but it does seem like maybe Arthur had a go as I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have originated from the Palitoy factory. Bit of a mystery that up side down bubble unless it was produced in the same place the NZ ones came from?

Ian

hi ian . god knows and i cant be bothered going post hunting either to say what was said by jj :|
and like you say ian maybe arthur did have a go at ironing cards :evil: which would inturn mean jason joiner or TT bought the ironed hoths stormies from arthur like that and sold them on ? no way a big bulk dealer like arthur would have ironed these himselfs and sold off as individuals he dealt in bulk as is obvious .,if arthur did iron these they were passed onto resellers he was trading with in england ie jj or tt ?and whom ever that was must have knew they were reseals

Just my recollection, I might be wrong - I thought JJ said he got them off Arthur in bulk (500?).

On more solid ground, I think he said he knew they were dodgy but at that time he was selling them very cheaply, barely more than a loose figure, and again, at that time, people cared alot less about that kind of thing because those ROTJ's were still very common back then and stock was getting offloaded all over the place so no-one valued it like they do now (hard to believe now!!).

One thing I did think was abit odd was that JJ said they were going very cheap but someone posted about buying an ironed Fett at a toy fair and the odd thing was he bought it for £30 or so, which is cheap now, but 25 years ago it was a good bit of money and (I thought) a lot more than a loose Fett would go for. That just seemed abit out of sync to me.

It was a long time ago though, so perhaps it's just people's memories going soft!!

_Lee_ · Jan 24, 2014

Can someone post the earliest date which one of TT,s figures could have been AFA graded.I mean a month/year if possible.Something is bugging me which i hope to research a bit.

Thanks

Lee

jedisearcher · Jan 24, 2014

Not sure how you'd do that. Perhaps contacting AFA directly might be the answer?

Caswellbot · Jan 24, 2014

Jay I think Jason Joiner did answer that questions at some point in the thread.

I also think Jason (Mr Palitoy) should be commended for his work on all of this. This is a mammoth undertaking and he has invested alot of time and energy into it. I think we all need to be realistic about our expectations of what we will find out in terms of hard facts when it comes to the sealing process and bubbles used by Toni. If there were 3 boxes of unused bubbles (which I believe is what was stated in the list) that is a HELL of alot of bubbles. Im sure that if there were that many we could expect to see a huge number variations of both bubble type and seals which will muddy the water horribly.

It is fair to assume that what ever the case, Toni would have gradually improved the sealing of these over many years. Therefore, looking for consistent trends and patterns will be an almost impossible task (although it is great that people are trying and this is key for damage limitation) The one key to all this clearly has nothing to say on the matter which is damming enough to boot.

Hopefully over time, more shop bought/ childhood examples with solid provenance will surface and will help to build a stronger case. With any luck the grading companies should also be able to offer some more insights in the future.

finestcomics · Jan 24, 2014

You can only do a lookup with those details by serial number. I just spent about five minutes searching through Google images and found a handful of serial numbers - the earliest I could find was 2007. I just used "Palitoy 45 Back AFA" and "Palitoy 65 Back AFA" for my search queries and saw quite a few. Otherwise you'll have to depend on some collectors to supply you some s/n who have been holding on to AFA'd pieces for at least the last ten years as they might have a chance of finding one from pre-2005, which seems to be the earliest one Jason had.

BTW: Here are the ones I checked on AFA's population report lookup tool:

11119646
13059483
11237810
11085648
17036950

spoons · Jan 24, 2014

The older ones will be easy to spot as they will have an old style case like the Canadian below

Any one know when AFA started the new style cases?

jay4 · Jan 24, 2014

jedisearcher

Just my recollection, I might be wrong - I thought JJ said he got them off Arthur in bulk (500?).

On more solid ground, I think he said he knew they were dodgy but at that time he was selling them very cheaply, barely more than a loose figure, and again, at that time, people cared alot less about that kind of thing because those ROTJ's were still very common back then and stock was getting offloaded all over the place so no-one valued it like they do now (hard to believe now!!).

:shock: wow! :shock: :shock: wtf hi jedisearcher :x well if mr joiner did say that somehwere and you have read it .he certainly didnt think too mention any of that to me in this thread and neither did any other members coming to think of it in his defense or mines :? when i said he could have had some part in it . so if your right in him saying that he could have just held his hands up saved me and him a lot of needless posting and time and said that to me that he had dodgy sealed hoth ironed stormies and knew it and sold them on instead saying otherwise and deflecting blame on tony for all his wrong doings, mr joiner actually stated to me in one post where i pictured my ironed stormie that it was deffo tony who done it

and yet by your account you think jj has allready stated it was him .so just confirm that you think jason joiner admitted having these ironed stormies and selling them on but quite clearly told me directly it was tony. why lie , ! good grief ,

aussiejames · Jan 24, 2014

panastur said:
finestcomics said:

I'm just trying to follow the last yellow-bolded point you made. Are you saying this is a repro bubble:

If it isn't, why and how do you definite "rigid feeling?"

Click to expand...

AFA cases are a real problem. You just can't feel the bubble...

Also, the seal must be this kind:

JC

Wait are you 100% sure? The first picture to me is a real factory seal using a double stem sealing 'press'

jedisearcher · Jan 24, 2014

jay4 said:
jedisearcher

Just my recollection, I might be wrong - I thought JJ said he got them off Arthur in bulk (500?).

On more solid ground, I think he said he knew they were dodgy but at that time he was selling them very cheaply, barely more than a loose figure, and again, at that time, people cared alot less about that kind of thing because those ROTJ's were still very common back then and stock was getting offloaded all over the place so no-one valued it like they do now (hard to believe now!!).

:shock: wow! :shock: :shock: wtf hi jedisearcher :x well if mr joiner did say that somehwere and you have read it .he certainly didnt think too mention any of that to me in this thread and neither did any other members coming to think of it in his defense or mines :? when i said he could have had some part in it . so if your right in him saying that he could have just held his hands up saved me and him a lot of needless posting and time and said that to me that he had dodgy sealed hoth ironed stormies and knew it and sold them on instead saying otherwise and deflecting blame on tony for all his wrong doings, mr joiner actually stated to me in one post where i pictured my ironed stormie that it was deffo tony who done it and yet by your account you think jj has allready stated it was him .so just confirm that you think jason joiner admitted having these ironed stormies and selling them on but quite clearly told me directly it was tony. why lie , ! good grief ,

Hmm my whole reasoning is based on the posting from a guy who'd bought a Fett at a fair. They were sold by one of JJ's staff who had a whole box of them behind the counter. I thought they were the ironed ones but perhaps I was wrong.

I wasn't trying to point fingers at anyone here so I'm going to go find the post now. If JJ has denied it already, it sounds like I've made a mistake (otherwise why deny something that had already been stated as fact :roll: ).

Palifan · Jan 24, 2014

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

hi M4K3R1 i did not know there was anything untoward with the background of these figures when i sold them , i knew there was issue with the way some of them had been packaged but never really worried about it at the time and sold them at the same price a lose figures

so i did not do anything wrong , its no different then the collectors that have bought and sold these figures over the last 20 years they did not know like my self there was anything wrong with these figures ether .

i have not done anything that is underhand or wrong in any way.

i hope that clear this up for you

jason

ace said:
Chico said:

Thanks Jason. That's exactly what I hoped to hear.

In that case I don't understand the wonky cards that apparently came from him early this century. If he'd already been at this for a decade by then why is he sending out duff cards with bubbles upside down!?!

As I've said before I agree there is a mountain of evidence staking up against Toni, but there are also more than a few things coming forward that don't stack up either. I just think as a community we shouldn't be so focused on Toni that we are missing other 'details' or assume that he was working alone.

Click to expand...

hi Chico i do not know if Toni was working with Arthur or not from the start ? it seems they both were in business for many years ? but as to anyone else being involved i do not know of anyone other than Arthur and Toni selling these figures and apart from the 1st bulk of 500 Fetts and trooper figures i managed to buy from Arthur at the start before Toni bought them from him sins then i have only herd of Toni selling them sins .

i also agree that there is more to get into to fully understand the full story , but i really feel we need to get on top of the Toni aspect of all this and get this agreed and closed then we can look into if there is others involved ?

hope that helps

jason

Here's something JJ said on this matter from page 94, I'll look to see if I can find any more info.

Ian

jay4 · Jan 24, 2014

jedisearcher said:
jay4 said:

jedisearcher

Just my recollection, I might be wrong - I thought JJ said he got them off Arthur in bulk (500?).

On more solid ground, I think he said he knew they were dodgy but at that time he was selling them very cheaply, barely more than a loose figure, and again, at that time, people cared alot less about that kind of thing because those ROTJ's were still very common back then and stock was getting offloaded all over the place so no-one valued it like they do now (hard to believe now!!).

:shock: wow! :shock: :shock: wtf hi jedisearcher :x well if mr joiner did say that somehwere and you have read it .he certainly didnt think too mention any of that to me in this thread and neither did any other members coming to think of it in his defense or mines :? when i said he could have had some part in it . so if your right in him saying that he could have just held his hands up saved me and him a lot of needless posting and time and said that to me that he had dodgy sealed hoth ironed stormies and knew it and sold them on instead saying otherwise and deflecting blame on tony for all his wrong doings, mr joiner actually stated to me in one post where i pictured my ironed stormie that it was deffo tony who done it and yet by your account you think jj has allready stated it was him .so just confirm that you think jason joiner admitted having these ironed stormies and selling them on but quite clearly told me directly it was tony. why lie , ! good grief ,

Click to expand...

Hmm my whole reasoning is based on the posting from a guy who'd bought a Fett at a fair. They were sold by one of JJ's staff who had a whole box of them behind the counter. I thought they were the ironed ones but perhaps I was wrong.

I wasn't trying to point fingers at anyone here so I'm going to go find the post now. If JJ has denied it already, it sounds like I've made a mistake (otherwise why deny something that had already been stated as fact :roll: ).

my bad. ive just read that in a previous post to me from jj which i didnt understand too clearly at the time what he was meaning , but he did indicate that the ironed stormies he sold on all came from arthur baillie pre ironed to him which means that any ironed hoth stormies jj got were the right way up bubble and any upside down bubbles jj says stem from toni . i spose i will just have to take his word on that

lee gray · Jan 24, 2014

spoons said:
The older ones will be easy to spot as they will have an old style case like the Canadian below

Any one know when AFA started the new style cases?

I think they always done the same two style cases from the start as i got a classic style case from 2003 of one of toni's Fetts I owned when they just used single grades.

Palifan · Jan 24, 2014

ace said:
ok guys so you want to call me out ? well its not the first time on here and it will not be the lat time , it is a wast of all our time and its really not going to help resolve this matter and help us learn more about what toni has getting up to ?

you are both losing site or the real crime here and the person that is hiding from everyone and dare not respond to many of the people on heres points ?

well i will respond to your points , you then can try to twist what i say and you can try to catch me out , but there is nothing here for me to be caught out on so i will respond.

one other thing guys its easy to attack the messenger , but have you thought whats its like to be the message ?

There is two of you at this time calling me out right now, there has been many in this thread around 15 so far, it would be easier for me to just not bother and walk away 50 pages back, but that would be wrong for the collating community and the right thing to do here is stand my ground and fight for the truth, not that you will remember this post by the end of this thread when its get to 150 pages ?.

i am the whistle blower here and i am the messenger and time will show i am doing the right thing for all collectors and i will came one thing for may self credit for standing my ground and telling the truth how ever hard it was.

now to your points
1
when i bought the figures from Arthur i thought they would all be in good shape when they turned up some of the Hoth troopers were messed up , these i stated to sell of at the time and for many years latter and i sold them off for no more than lose figures sold for at the same time as i felt the cards were worthless and that was all i could get for them,

i did not sell them at a premium or at the mint carded price so what they were was not really important to anyone 10 years ago , the better carded troopers i did sell also and i thought they were smiler to the mismatched carded figures that were also turning up at that time some of the bubbles were not amazing but thought nothing more about it till this all kicked off so know crime there .

2
the fetts i paid 45p each for them and sold them for 1.50p each and they were opened that night when Craig got them that night
i thought they were fine factory carded figures as they looked good to me and Craig was happy with his 440 fetts and as he opened them he did not care what cards they were and they looked good and just opened them so no crime there ether ?

3

i knew there was 25,000 figures but there was carded figures and cards and figures and at that time it was a little confusing what Arthur had so i took them for what they looked like figures on cards with some that looked like seconds or rejects ? but most looked good and the fetts looked very good and even now i do not know with all this info coming out if there were good or not ?

so thats it again guys thats the truth , i hope if Toni comes on here you drill him in the same way ;-).

jason

This is from page 95 and now I'm unsure if this deal for the troopers and Fetts was from a different deal than the ones TT ended up with. Maybe this point does need clearing up for JJ (sorry if you already have mention it JJ but it's so hard to keep track of everything)

Ian

Richard_H · Jan 24, 2014

Tbh it's Jay who's flogging this now. If he's really bothered he should go back and read the posts - why waste time researching for him. This has been answered at least twice now IIRC.

spoons · Jan 24, 2014

I agree - no opinion on Jason either way, but he said he bought the Fetts and troopers off Arthur back in the day and then sold them cheap.

Very different attitudes back then and very different to selling fakes in 2014

Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

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