Tonigate air date on Fake Britain

[kingshearer]

It's worth pointing out again that nobody is 100% sure about any of this - most people agree the evidence is overwhelming, however there are few 'facts' so take Jason's (and others) hard work as a very helpful guide, but ultimately everyone needs to make their own decisions.

Agreed and don't expect TT to ever be brought to justice for this. :x

I suppose it's also not beyond the realms of possibility that those industrial press machines show in the archive footage might not have been used all the time (or if they were sometimes not creating a crease to the card seen from the rear) and similarly, for one reason or another, there would have been times when the matched numbered bubbles were not used being substituted with a generic numberless bubble.

 

[_Lee_]

It's worth pointing out again that nobody is 100% sure about any of this - most people agree the evidence is overwhelming, however there are few 'facts' so take Jason's (and others) hard work as a very helpful guide, but ultimately everyone needs to make their own decisions.

Exactly Edd, thats why any yes/no from anyone shouldnt be taken as gospel. There have been a few flawed Toni/genuine opinions and i for one beleive that only 1 person (although i think more) know the truth.

 

[theforceuk]

Also I would like to just say I have no problem with anyone selling a TT MOC if they declare it, whats wrong with that?

With the price of cardbacks at the moment and the way the hobby is going it's going to be worth selling the cardback and figure seperately. :roll: Rather than MOC. I wander if AFA/UKG would 'U' grade a TT. :?

 

[_Lee_]

Also I would like to just say I have no problem with anyone selling a TT MOC if they declare it, whats wrong with that?

With the price of cardbacks at the moment and the way the hobby is going it's going to be worth selling the cardback and figure seperately. :roll: Rather than MOC. I wander if AFA/UKG would 'U' grade a TT. :?

I find it wrong because there is no guarantee these wont be sold on as original to newer collectors. We all know that when Ep7 is released that things will go ballistic and it will attract new collectors. So although you may think you are doing the right thing, you are in fact doing the total opposite in many ways. This may seem harsh, but the buck should stop with the original owner instead of selling them with a declaration. Ive had to take a hit once or twice having been ripped off, but just got on with it. Bought a 12 back Kenobi for £250 in 2002 that was sold as moc but was resealed, and i lost out-but i got a nice Ben from it Ive also hit big buying something rare for pennies, and this hobby works like that.

I did find it particularly strange how people were happily palming off these with a declaration, but never having control of what happens after. It seemed as long as they reduced their loss to a minimum all was ok and something isnt right with that.

 

[Mr-shifter]

Also I would like to just say I have no problem with anyone selling a TT MOC if they declare it, whats wrong with that?

With the price of cardbacks at the moment and the way the hobby is going it's going to be worth selling the cardback and figure seperately. :roll: Rather than MOC. I wander if AFA/UKG would 'U' grade a TT. :?

I find it wrong because there is no guarantee these wont be sold on as original to newer collectors. We all know that when Ep7 is released that things will go ballistic and it will attract new collectors. So although you may think you are doing the right thing, you are in fact doing the total opposite in many ways. This may seem harsh, but the buck should stop with the original owner instead of selling them with a declaration. Ive had to take a hit once or twice having been ripped off, but just got on with it. Bought a 12 back Kenobi for £250 in 2002 that was sold as moc but was resealed, and i lost out-but i got a nice Ben from it Ive also hit big buying something rare for pennies, and this hobby works like that.

I did find it particularly strange how people were happily palming off these with a declaration, but never having control of what happens after. It seemed as long as they reduced their loss to a minimum all was ok and something isnt right with that.

I'm going to play Devils advocate here with you.

By your earlier statement you said that no one can say yes or no if these are good or bad. We are not 100% certain what these are.

By that merit, surely people can actively trade these with no disclaimers, as they might be real, no one really knows and there's no concrete evidence.

 

[theforceuk]

Also I would like to just say I have no problem with anyone selling a TT MOC if they declare it, whats wrong with that?

With the price of cardbacks at the moment and the way the hobby is going it's going to be worth selling the cardback and figure seperately. :roll: Rather than MOC. I wander if AFA/UKG would 'U' grade a TT. :?

I find it wrong because there is no guarantee these wont be sold on as original to newer collectors. We all know that when Ep7 is released that things will go ballistic and it will attract new collectors. So although you may think you are doing the right thing, you are in fact doing the total opposite in many ways. This may seem harsh, but the buck should stop with the original owner instead of selling them with a declaration. Ive had to take a hit once or twice having been ripped off, but just got on with it. Bought a 12 back Kenobi for £250 in 2002 that was sold as moc but was resealed, and i lost out-but i got a nice Ben from it Ive also hit big buying something rare for pennies, and this hobby works like that.

I did find it particularly strange how people were happily palming off these with a declaration, but never having control of what happens after. It seemed as long as they reduced their loss to a minimum all was ok and something isnt right with that.

I understand your point, but come on some collectors might go for a TT because their cheaper just like a re-seal. People who spend hundreds of pounds on anything should do their research before hand. I admire your view point but you can't expect other collectors to hold it. As long as your not deceptive in the sale then come on, I mean are you not aloud to sell beater MOC's incase your selling them to a 'U' grader?

 

[Robstyley]

My Palitoy 65 backs were sold to me as original sealed and I was at the time that newer collector and didn't know anything about any of this. Whether the sellers knew what they were and knowingly tried to rip me off or not I'll never know. I'm going to search back my Paypal and find out who sold me them and how much I paid. If they are Tonis I won't exactly be happy about it but I still like them as vintage pieces and will keep them in my cabinet. I don't think this debate is just about the items, it is as much about dishonesty and value. It's up to a new owner of a Toni to be honest about it and put a disclaimer if they sell it and price it accordingly. If they don't they're an arsehole, plain and simple.

 

[_Lee_]

Also I would like to just say I have no problem with anyone selling a TT MOC if they declare it, whats wrong with that?

With the price of cardbacks at the moment and the way the hobby is going it's going to be worth selling the cardback and figure seperately. :roll: Rather than MOC. I wander if AFA/UKG would 'U' grade a TT. :?

I find it wrong because there is no guarantee these wont be sold on as original to newer collectors. We all know that when Ep7 is released that things will go ballistic and it will attract new collectors. So although you may think you are doing the right thing, you are in fact doing the total opposite in many ways. This may seem harsh, but the buck should stop with the original owner instead of selling them with a declaration. Ive had to take a hit once or twice having been ripped off, but just got on with it. Bought a 12 back Kenobi for £250 in 2002 that was sold as moc but was resealed, and i lost out-but i got a nice Ben from it Ive also hit big buying something rare for pennies, and this hobby works like that.

I did find it particularly strange how people were happily palming off these with a declaration, but never having control of what happens after. It seemed as long as they reduced their loss to a minimum all was ok and something isnt right with that.

I'm going to play Devils advocate here with you.

By your earlier statement you said that no one can say yes or no if these are good or bad. We are not 100% certain what these are.

By that merit, surely people can actively trade these with no disclaimers, as they might be real, no one really knows and there's no concrete evidence.

You make a very valid point there. As nobody knows for definate what is and isnt real then there is no written law. We can all give opinions on pieces but we will never know for sure UNLESS the people responsible admit it. Ok the ironed cards are a huge tell, and more or less get it spot on but im still not convinced by other theorys. In my opinion there has been a lot of exagerrated ideas coming out of this such as repro bubbles etc which i think is going a bit too far. Take Robs Chewbacca for example. The bubble type has been used on shop bought examples and used cardbacks but some still are jittery with them.

Thats why i have said from day 1 that anyone who is saying that something is surely a Toni is crossing a dangerous line which could come back and bite them in the ass. There is no authority or expert on these, it is all about education and experience.

Thankyou for raising that point Shifty

 

[edd_jedi]

And although as you say some of the evidence is most incriminating, some if it is not so, eg the strength of the seal. I've had Kenner and Tri logo bubbles practically fall off cardbacks before leaving nearly no sign of removal, so that is definitely not a fool-proof way of identifying one of these cardbacks.

 

[Mr-shifter]

A lot of this will come down to the buyers point of view. I am personally not comfortable with these cardback combos now and as such will not consider them for my collection unless I can be 100% sure in my mind that I'm happy with the item. But that's just me. And it's not just wether the card has this or that, it's mostly down to my gut instinct on the piece.

 

[ironfist]

Well done, Jason. This is the best way to spread the word. It's a pity you couldn't name the faker, AFA or UKG, but it was clearly due to legal reasons... All vintage collectors should be grateful to you.
There's no need to say we also saw the video here in Spain, and now more people are aware of the 'Tonigate'.

 

[Star newbie]

Hi Mr Pallitoy I would like to speak to you after your appearance on fake Britain about the industry. Could you please pm me your contact details.

Cheers
Simon

 

[weasel]

Do I sense a budding forum romance? :wink: :lol:

 

[JuniorChubb]

[youtube]NNC0kIzM1Fo[/youtube]

 

[kingshearer]

:lol:

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have pm'd back. Watch here for brokeback updates.



Jason

 

[weasel]

:lol:

I'll happily pass on the updates, though Andy will probably want picture evidence!