Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

Don't shoot the messenger!

This 'suspected' fake baggie scam - it does say the word 'suspected' in the thread title - has been brought to all our attention. The manner in which it was brought up is done and in the past, and as Tarkin says bickering is pointless.

If Jeff has indeed been reading this (and still no one has confirmed whether or not he's a forum member) really the explanation from him is what we are now waiting for. Jeff, would suggest you make a clear statement - and very much hope you will be a good human being and offer return / refund to anyone who has bought something you sold that is shown to be wrong.

 

[Stuart Skinner]

Don't shoot the messenger!

This 'suspected' fake baggie scam - it does say the word 'suspected' in the thread title - has been brought to all our attention. The manner in which it was brought up is done and in the past, and as Tarkin says bickering is pointless.

If Jeff has indeed been reading this (and still no one has confirmed whether or not he's a forum member) really the explanation from him is what we are now waiting for. Jeff, would suggest you make a clear statement - and very much hope you will be a good human being and offer return / refund to anyone who has bought something you sold that is shown to be wrong.

Agree, I wont mention the issue of way it has been delivered again, made my feelings clear on that.

I am of the understanding that Jeff will be addressing this situation in the future.

 

[Floody]

Looks like this is not a new thing on here

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19041

 

[lee gray]

If Jeff has indeed been reading this (and still no one has confirmed whether or not he's a forum member) really the explanation from him is what we are now waiting for. .

Yeah it seens to have been mentioned several times now and noone has confirmed he is as yet. Hopefully he is because if not how can he try to defend himself.

Being told u r selling fakes and still selling them as genuine is just as bad as producing them

 

[greedodidntshoot]

First I want to praise Frank for the tremendous amount of effort that went into the investigation. The list of folks that contributed to the effort will agree with me when I say that we operated more as a support network for Frank's incredibly tedious and time consuming endeavor to bring this matter in light. I can tell you first hand that it was not a small undertaking. As has already been said, Frank's passion for and knowledge of the Baggie area of the hobby is unquestionable.
With regards to how the public disclosure of this information was handled and the displeasure that many are having, I have this to say. The decision was made with the best interest of the community as a whole being first and foremost. The evidence was presented in a matter of fact fashion and the person behind the issue was named so that everyone could draw their own conclusion. The number of victims is a question mark as there is no telling who or how many have purchased fakes. By presenting the evidence in a public forum, perhaps additional evidence will come to light one way or the other.
I think that if this was some unknown or even lesser known person (suspect), there would be no one questioning the public disclosure. Just because Jeff is a respected collector or friend does not mean that he deserves special treatment in my opinion. I can say first had that in more cases than not, family members and friends of confirmed/convicted criminal suspects would never suspect that their loved one or friend would be capable of the things they've been convicted of doing. It's either they don't want to believe it or are utterly shocked into denial. For those friends of Jeff - everyone makes mistakes and its natural and respectable that you want to stand behind your friend. I further think it's respectable and understandable that some will continue to stand behind a friend even when the truth turns out to be what they didn't want to believe. That being said, I feel that Jeff owes it to the community (his friends being at the top of the list) to respond with the truth. Everyone makes mistakes, it's what you do when you make the mistake that is the true measure of one's character.

 

[naughtyjedi]

I'm amazed the suggestion that the wording and content of the post is 'more important' than the actual criminal actions here, and some people seem to be focusing more on that than the fakes, which is pretty shocking.
Just because it was not handled the way you would have handled it does not mean is was handled wrongly. The wrongdoing here is the sale of fraudulent goods. Don't lose sight of the actual issue in favor of defending someone who is well aware of the thread but has not as of yet bothered to offer any explanation or defend himself.
How about showing some appreciation for those who took the time to do the research and make the post for the benefit of the entire community, instead of criticizing the way it was done.

I have no idea about baggies. Reading Frank's message I have no reason to doubt him. I have no idea if Jeff is guilty of manufacturing or purchasing or both. No idea. I've spoken with jeff for about 2 mins at FF. I have no loyalty to him or Frank..

HOWEVER no matter the guilt or innocence surely surely surely Jeff has a right to be addressed off record and asked, "we are pissed about this, this is the evidence we have" then and only then go public. (on a platform of his membership). Not everyone has the time or inclination for social media. For what we see in the thread and what follows Jeff appears to have been judged for manufacturing and supply.

I hope if people have been ripped off then money is returned. AND i praise the research done. Phenomenal

I have taken no side. And I hope Jeff comes here and answers to the accusations. But I shant be heaping scorn until I hear what he has to say.

 

[Frunkstar]

Everyone makes mistakes, it's what you do when you make the mistake that is the true measure of one's character.

The above is the nail on the head! & that door swings both ways, if I am wrong regarding anything I will be the first to stand up & admit my fault.

I have been busy most of today hence not getting on to answer any sooner, all I would like to say for now is that I don't want to say anything further as I would like Jeff to have the opportunity to come on & tell the other side of the story before I commit to answering many of the points raised here by many, I do not think he's a registered member of the forum, but he does read the forum as he uses my guide frequently & I think you can answer posts as a guest, if that is not the case I have already told Jeff it's a simple case of taking 2 minutes to to join the forum, so either way he has access to come on & put forward anything he wishes to say on the matter which I do hope he does, as one of you pointed out I put the word "suspected" in the title & before the word fake in every paragraph for good reason.

If for whatever reason Jeff is unwilling to come on to discus the matter on a public platform with the next week (7 days from today) which under the circumstances I feel is an adequate time frame I will do my utmost to answer any & all questions to the best of my ability.

The only other point I wish to comment on is the red text baggies which Stuart brought up which is a very valid point that needs addressing, I have not yet checked my emails to see if I have it in black & white to confirm or if it was done on the phone, though I know images were sent so I presume I have it, I will be sifting through to find out as soon as I can which will be asap so I can confirm, I always save all relevant emails.

 

[Cymonguk]

I first became suspicious when he offered me some baggies with red text on them which I confirmed were fake or re-bagged from another toy line, I presumed that was the end of those baggies & they would be opened & the baggies discarded, sadly about 6 months or so later the guy had them listed for sale on his ebay account even though he knew they were not correct,

This is the biggest concern I think, re-listing known fakes, lets hope it is not indicative for those people who have bought from him. One would think it would be very difficult for him to be able to refund every person who may have bought from him, and that definitely excludes any people who might be buying from another person in a long line of sales, etc.

Even if it is a mistake, then its is going to be difficult for him to repair the damage to the hobby and the community. I feel more sorry for those people who have bought these than I do Jeff, if he was unsure about such a very specific area it may be best to avoid, especially given that numerous people had pointed out to him that he had fake baggies (on ebay and his stall). It might have been prudent to contact someone like Frank and ask for advice on your whole stock. Hindsight though is a wonderful thing.

 

[spoons]

Looks like this is not a new thing on here

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19041

people seemed to have missed Floody's post - definitely worth quoting

 

[lee gray]

It would have been good to post this where hes an an actual member so atleast he could defend himself.

If hes guilty though then good job .

 

[finestcomics]

Just thought I'd post this as I had SW B baggies and the orientation of the 3P0 and lack of contrast made it a bit difficult to see the differences as even the real Stormie has some slight ink loss (incidentally, one of the baggies I also own). I tweaked the contrast on the 3P0 as the "HONG" was too faded, so I could at least get a better look at MADE IN KO to compare with mine.

You can see the more pronounced weight/thickness of the "K", but there's a strike/registration/misalignment with it, that is more pronounced with the first letters of MADE overlapping (could be an anomoly of the photo itself, but it looks as if there's a drop shadow effect on it). Almost as if it was restamped/restruck because it didn't make a strong enough ink impression on the first attempt.

 

[Ian_C]

I can't speak to the fakes themselves, as I am not a baggie collector, thus I have limited experience/knowledge with them.

What I can say is that threads like these are what makes our hobby so great at times. People look out for each other. No one questions the motivation of the people involved in the initial post. There is at least one lawyer I know of that contributed to this, so any legalities are largely covered, and shouldn't really be in question, aside from possible differences in jurisdictions.

I also don't know the seller in question, so there is no reason to be in denial of wrongdoing. Sadly, I see that some are reluctant to believe any of this as they know the seller personally. The same thing has happened in the past, when once highly respected collectors (and friends of other well-respected collectors) get outed on shady activity.

Nothing in the previous 8 pages directly indicates the seller manufactured them. In that regard, it's not so good he was linked to their manufacture. On the other side, there is damning evidence about him knowingly selling them. Examples have been provided where he was shown items were fake - and he sold them at a later date with no mention of it. It appears the numbers that have been sold that can be traced back to being sold by him number in the hundreds. Considering no other major baggie seller has this kind of selling history, and any high volume seller should know their inventory inside out, then at a minimum he can be outed as a seller of known fakes. As someone else has said, that is almost as bad as making them himself. The other thing of note is that with so many being sourced directly to him, then it becomes clear that the strong inference is either he made them, or has a direct supplier that deals exclusively with him. Unfortunately, the answer to that one will likely never be known unless he admits to it.

The thing that makes this look even shadier, in my opinion, is that like the smartest scammers, he sells them alongside legit ones. It adds to his own legitimacy, as he can point to all the real ones he has sold. The pattern would be to make a name for oneself, then slowly increase the fakes as his reputation grows and the fakes are not discovered.

The end result is that another niche area of collecting now has a dark cloud hanging over it, making it a much harder area to collect.

Ian

 

[Frunkstar]

Jeff has put a reply up in the baggie group I help admin on face book, I told him on the phone it was not the place to say what he needs to say & it needs to be put on here as it's a more permanent format, I have responded to his message & turned off commenting on the post & advised that it is here he needs to put forward his side of the story.

His reply is there on the pinned post if anyone wishes to view it, but please can I ask you keep any comments on here, any further discussion on the FB group will be closed immediately as it's not the right format for this kind of thing IMO.

 

[Lom]

Jeff has put a reply up in the baggie group I help admin on face book, I told him on the phone it was not the place to say what he needs to say & it needs to be put on here as it's a more permanent format, I have responded to his message & turned off commenting on the post & advised that it is here he needs to put forward his side of the story.

His reply is there on the pinned post if anyone wishes to view it, but please can I ask you keep any comments on here, any further discussion on the FB group will be closed immediately as it's not the right format for this kind of thing IMO.

Frank, could you put a link or copy it for those of us without Facebook please?

 

[edd_jedi]

Here's what Jeff put on FB (I have edited out a few accidental double posts)

Hi Guys!

Im here to say my piece and weather your with me or not thats for you to decide? Some of you will know me as i have sold shed loads of starwars stuff on and off ebay for near 10 years now. Not just baggie, I have been collecting mainly starwars baggies since the late 90;s and had at one point over 1000 baggies . I have sold many to some of you guys and become very good friends having the plesure of meeting some of you recently in person at the FF show .My good friend asked me along to sell my excess stock last year and i have been welcomed back since. I hope this issues does not damage this relation i have with these guys as im so upset with how this has been done .Now im here to say my piece as most of all know by now im being outted as a faker. I had been accumalating baggies mainly via ebay and private sales and recently over the last 3 years been switching to collecting carded figs as i have noted alot of my bagged figures were starting to perish/spilt /dry ect and decided that i would start to sell all these excess stock i have as really do i need these many baggies sitting in boxes in the loft?? So thats the main reason i have sold so many not that i have been making them thats maddness . I have sold many of these so called fakes to Frank mewesway back and he accepted them so had no reason to deem them as any thing but genuine. I know one of my soures was a guy called Gratson cant remeber his first name but spent £1000's of pounds with him which is the source of most of my SW-a , b and d, which the text is not right i been told and only found out last night.

If i had know there was an issues when this witch hunt started some months back and someone had the gump to contact with knowing this issues then i could of actted on it sooner but no my good friends some of you here decided to undercover and expose me as a possible fake , well im not and any of you are welcome to my house and see my collection any time as i have no intrest and have not the time in doing so. I run a family bussiness with my parents and have 2 childern to look after full time so i can tell you i have little time to myself which when i do is spent surfing for more starwars related bargain i can add to my growing collection. As many of you know i have family in the stataes and therefore have a gateway to buy stuff that Ebay.com users dont allow us folk in the Uk to buy which is a fair bit of missed baggie opt. Any qustions any of you have please feel free to ask or email me at [email protected] i would give my mobile no too but been not to for time reasons but would of been happy to do so. I also happy to refund anyone who can give me a valid reason for a return but please note that because of this post it has left me with loads of teaxts and emails from worried buyers and quite righly so. I thank those who know me well for there support and yes i agree this has been done wrong with posting ugly mug up there for all to see is very wrong. Frank i thought you would of knoew better regards etiquette when naming people with this kind of info. there is so much more i want to say but have to go as im at work and am needed else where. i will finish this later and most likely answing your questions. just to let you guys know i have been put on stop with PayPal due to this posting as from this morning so im unable to refund anyone but hoping to get it lifted .i will see everyone gets a refund but please you will need to give me time as i expect some of you will demard one weather you think these are fake or genuine. Please be kind and i will respond Asap. Thanks Jeff P.s sorry there is no spell check on this dam thing so you will have work out what i said if it dont read right.

 

[turkdlit]

I don't think that response by Jeff is adequate as far as shedding any light to the source of the baggies. It's nice to offer refunds and your email but saying you dont have a lot of time due to family constraints and saying you simply bought a ton of baggies doesn't address:

1. Why were previously outed fake bags then reposted/resold as legit ones
2. Where did the majority of the baggies come from and was there a single large source of fake ones bought elsewhere
3. The simple answer the the question: did Jeff directly manufacture and create fake baggies, yes or no?

The FB post simply doesn't answer any of the core concerns that collectors have regarding this whole shitshow. And saying this was a witch hunt by Frank suggests he has something personal against Jeff, which I don't believe is accurate- I think his heart is in the right place.

 

[trappedtexan]

I don't ever post over here, but some of you may know me from RS or TIG.

I don't understand this bashing on Frank for the way this was handled. Did toy Toni get contacted prior to being outed in a forum? Did Billyboy? Scott McWilliams? No, that's not how information comes to light. Frank and others saw fakes being passed around and they did contact him at least regarding the red text baggies if I am reading this right. He then removed the fake items to only list them again later.

This guy is no different from the ones I noted above, in fact want to see the similarities to the one involving baggies?

Billyboy:
Aquired from a source
Upset over how he was ousted
continued to sell fake items after being told they were fake
willing to refund


Jeff:
Aquired from a source
Upset over how he was ousted
Continued to sell fake items (i.e. red text baggies) after being told they were fake
willing to refund

This guy has friends in the community just as these others did. Now he says his paypal has been frozen? I am sure that may be true. People filing claims when there is no balance in there will freeze the account. There were die hard friends who stood by some of these other guys also if you read through some of the old threads regarding them. I think given the amount of information that was looked at Frank and the others handled this most appropriately especially given that the seller was continuing to sell these fake items. Also he has collected baggies how long? Many years according to his own response (the 90's so now going on 27 years), yet he didn't see that three different baggie types he has in hand were fakes until he was told last night? I don't know if he is the manufacturer of these, but frankly I expected this type of response. I mean what does he gain from saying yes I knew or yes I did it? Nothing. What does he gain from denying it and trying to throw it onto a "source"? He gets to keep selling. As others have said regardless of his part in the overall, lets not cloud the issue of his being told he had fakes and selling them, and this isn't even the first time he has been outed with fakes. Some of you said he had them at a convention and the previous linked thread in here where Joe posted about his having fakes also. The Joe thread is years old, so has the same source been selling him fakes for years and he has continued to buy them? I mean come on.....getting burned on one batch of fakes as a seller surely he would check things a bit closer in future transactions.

 

[fuzzybuzzytoys]

1. Why were previously outed fake bags then reposted/resold as legit ones
Not addressed

2. Where did the majority of the baggies come from and was there a single large source of fake ones bought elsewhere
eBay. Majority brought from 'Gratson'

3. The simple answer the the question: did Jeff directly manufacture and create fake baggies, yes or no?
He clearly said no and that claim was madness

 

[Frunkstar]

Just done some digging through emails & I do have the info regarding the red text baggies & am happy to do screen shots if needed to confirm.

 

[xbomber]

I don't think that response by Jeff is adequate as far as shedding any light to the source of the baggies. It's nice to offer refunds and your email but saying you dont have a lot of time due to family constraints and saying you simply bought a ton of baggies doesn't address:

1. Why were previously outed fake bags then reposted/resold as legit ones
2. Where did the majority of the baggies come from and was there a single large source of fake ones bought elsewhere
3. The simple answer the the question: did Jeff directly manufacture and create fake baggies, yes or no?

The FB post simply doesn't answer any of the core concerns that collectors have regarding this whole shitshow. And saying this was a witch hunt by Frank suggests he has something personal against Jeff, which I don't believe is accurate- I think his heart is in the right place.

Sounds like Jeff has started to cover #2 and #3 in the above. #1 remains a good question (arguably the only smoking gun here) and could impact people's ability to believe the rest of the account.

The thing for me is the "so what" factor. It's going to be impossible to prove or disprove his position as he's now set it out. IE he's flogging a load of baggies for a valid reason and most of them may have come from this American chap that he can't really remember.

Is it likely? No.
Can it be disproved? No.