Palitoy Vinyl Cape Jawa Update

I was referring to a plastic tray that is mentioned here -

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1089930/

You can see from the picture the cardboard one I mentioned but there's also a clear plastic one that I think was released later. I've never seen the plastic one on a 12 back Palitoy and I figured as this was a transitional bubble before the slant one there weren't many sent over to the UK, hence only the cardboard trays exist (although I'd love to know if anyone has a plastic one). Also note how deep the bubble is on this one. I can't take a picture of mine at the moment as it's in storage but I'll be putting up a new topic of my collection with some information on Palitoy COO's when I get back to my collection.

On your picture of the Jawa with the big yellow price sticker on it you can see the cardboard tray just behind his shoulders.

Palifan said:

I was referring to a plastic tray that is mentioned here -

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1089930/

You can see from the picture the cardboard one I mentioned but there's also a clear plastic one that I think was released later. I've never seen the plastic one on a 12 back Palitoy and I figured as this was a transitional bubble before the slant one there weren't many sent over to the UK, hence only the cardboard trays exist (although I'd love to know if anyone has a plastic one). Also note how deep the bubble is on this one. I can't take a picture of mine at the moment as it's in storage but I'll be putting up a new topic of my collection with some information on Palitoy COO's when I get back to my collection.

On your picture of the Jawa with the big yellow price sticker on it you can see the cardboard tray just behind his shoulders.

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Yes you can! It is more obvious if you save the image to disk and zoom in on it. Have updated the descriptions to mention that and the cardboard footplates.

cheers Jason

Here's the best picture I have of my Jawa with the cardboard tray and also another picture of Richards VC Jawa from before he owned it (from my avatar, passed on by Palitoyjunky).

So the 3 known bubble types seen on palitoy cards exactly match those seen on Kenner cards as detailed here:-

http://www.12back.com/features/vcjawa/vcjawa.php3

That makes perfect sense!



Jason

Guys,

Id like to personally thank Jason for the time and effort he has put into this.He has provided info,ideas and photos into this legendary myth that now looks to be a reality.I will admit i was/am one of the naysayers on this piece,but in all honesty evidence is starting to back up the existence of it.I was one who was ripped off by that wanker Torres,and probably detest him as much as Chelsea fans hate their torres but knowing he MAY have owned this piece,is a shame as if it were not for his shady past it could have been proven sooner.

I started collecting again in a big way in 1995 after my mother bought me a few Ewoks and other bits from a market stall.I dedicated hours of my time trawling books,collecting magazines and eventually the internet reading about vintage SW,and Palitoy in general.I consider myself to be able enough to detect a fake,reseal or any other suspect piece from the years i have seen,held and owned Palitoy items and in this case i beleive in person viewing/inspection is required when such a piece found,which Lee B made a comment about a while ago on the RS forum. That said, an AFA graded piece is part of the way to ensure its place in folklore (and it hurts for me of all people to say that) and the existence.Andy Clarke said a long time ago that he beleived this to be real,and with the opinions of others such as Gary,Jim S to say it looked ok then the pros outweighed the cons.I wish i had looked more closely at the EED one last year,but i was busy getting over 60 autographs for people.That still pisses me off to this day And whats more,do you seriously beleive the EED owner wouldnt have blurted this out sooner? Truth be known,he knew he has a bad rep,and that things are still being dug up about his history to this day.Nevermind his 'collecting politics ' etc bullshit,he knew then and knows now that people are aware and onto him.Id like to know more about this photographer too-very interesting.

So in the end,we have to somehow realise that it could have happened,and some do exist but one thing still doesnt sit right with me.This is the idea of resealed versions being all original.Im just hoping if these get sold on as Palitoy VCJ,that people are aware that it isnt a guarantee and they shouldnt be sold as such.That is just my opinion,and one that i respectfully disagree with Jason on.Saying there are 2-3 sealed,with 4 reseals isnt entirely true and sounds quite honestly,rediculous.Reseals prove nothing,even 12 figures sold on cards with the back door cut out,and a story about how they stayed with the owner for years isnt 100% proof either.Anyone who uses the net to research could find out if they swapped a cloth cape with vinyl one,could make up a story about how they stayed in their loft untouched for year to ensure they made a few quid more.It boils down to the fact that there is not enough proof with the reseals.Does anyone really think that Palitoy would have been too bothered about shoving a CCJ into a VCJ bubble? i think not,as people wanted the figures quick.They were not bought then to be treasured as collectables,but bought to be played with.The figure wouldnt have been damaged in anyway.

So even though i think the existence is looking good,i doubt and dislike the reseal theory.I think it is untrue and could cause repercussions in the community.Sorry Jason.

Peace out chaps.

Lee

Just because AFA have given it a grade, doesn't make it so. Who gave them jurisdiction? I don't have that much respect for their "Authority".

Surely seasoned, trusted Palitoy collectors opinions have more clout here?

You can always call in to doubt the story behind any reseal and the figure that is in there, I will admit that. Though why they would all be sold along with original vinyl cape jawas kind of defeats the purpose of making a killing using a fake cape. Anyway, I have my provenance from Lee Bullock, I'm a trusting sort, and I'm happy with that.

Have updated my cardback guide with the new info on the transitional wider vinyl bubble and the hole puch placement using the new sealed examples that I have found.

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/sw12bcardback.htm



cheers Jason

I find it hard to believe that if someone had manufactured a fake version which is good enough to pass AFAs scrutiny then surely there would be many, many more of them? I know people dislike the AFA but they see more MOCs than we will see in our lifetime. Yes they make mistakes, all big organisations do, but factor in the evidence of the UK collectors who thought it was legit and you've got a compelling case.

Back to my original point, I can't believe someone would go to the trouble and expense of a fantastically accurate VCJ and then not ever bother making a second. Fakers are driven by greed and profit. Why make one and one only? It really makes no sense. We're talking about less than 5 by the sounds of it, so hardly a cost effective investment. Perhaps some odd set of circumstances happened, an unused card back perhaps, a clean cut bubble of the correct type but its still hard to think it passed so much scrutiny, particularly the crosshatched seal which it appears has never been faked. And all for one MOC and never used again? Doesn't add up.

flycasual said:

Just because AFA have given it a grade, doesn't make it so. Who gave them jurisdiction? I don't have that much respect for their "Authority".

Surely seasoned, trusted Palitoy collectors opinions have more clout here?

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Yeah,i know mate but we have to keep an open mind.Im more worried about the lack of COA for an item such as this. I would also agree on the Palitoy collectors opinion.There are many Palitoy collectors out there,myself included but until i saw this in the flesh id be dubious.I have seen hundreds,and owned quite a few but then Gary Smith came along with his toy hoover and sucked them dry (joke Gary) If i could see these pieces,it would give a much clearer picture but the truth is i havent.**** me,i was in such a rush at EED that i didnt even notice that one(Jawas always been an ugly little ****er IMO anyway )

Ive always said AFA are a self made monster with a self imposed authority title,but ive given up beating that horse.This piece should have been graded at home.

mr_palitoy said:

You can always call in to doubt the story behind any reseal and the figure that is in there, I will admit that. Though why they would all be sold along with original vinyl cape jawas kind of defeats the purpose of making a killing using a fake cape. Anyway, I have my provenance from Lee Bullock, I'm a trusting sort, and I'm happy with that.

Have updated my cardback guide with the new info on the transitional wider vinyl bubble and the hole puch placement using the new sealed examples that I have found.

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/sw12bcardback.htm



cheers Jason

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Dont get me wrong Jason,im not doubting Lee's opinion,but one man sees something different to another.All Lee said was that it was a VCJ,and a VCJ bubble card and the provenance sounded good.However, provenance can be falsified.It has been before,and will be in the future-nothing will stop that.Lets have it like this then,if Lee,Gary or someone else said this AFA graded figure was fake (before grading) and then AFA passed it as good,what would your thought be then? I just think you are basing existence of this one graded piece to be the go ahead to claim there are 3 sealed and 4 resealed.That is wrong,and highly incorrect.

With regards to the cape theory,if they tried with a fake cape they would be found out.Ive never doubted the cape itself,just the cardback originality with the figure.There is no way to tell whether that was the original figure to that card.

Lee

Well put it this way. If someone turns up with a cloth Jawa on Palitoy cardback with a VC type bubble they will be the proud owner of the rarest Jawa in existence.

So if you want to dismiss the existence of a VC Jawa with VC bubble then you have to except the rarer alternative. Unless you believe that all four examples of sealed VC bubbles are fake?

Palitoy78 said:

mr_palitoy said:

You can always call in to doubt the story behind any reseal and the figure that is in there, I will admit that. Though why they would all be sold along with original vinyl cape jawas kind of defeats the purpose of making a killing using a fake cape. Anyway, I have my provenance from Lee Bullock, I'm a trusting sort, and I'm happy with that.

Have updated my cardback guide with the new info on the transitional wider vinyl bubble and the hole puch placement using the new sealed examples that I have found.

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/sw12bcardback.htm



cheers Jason

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Dont get me wrong Jason,im not doubting Lee's opinion,but one man sees something different to another.All Lee said was that it was a VCJ,and a VCJ bubble card and the provenance sounded good.However, provenance can be falsified.It has been before,and will be in the future-nothing will stop that.Lets have it like this then,if Lee,Gary or someone else said this AFA graded figure was fake (before grading) and then AFA passed it as good,what would your thought be then? I just think you are basing existence of this one graded piece to be the go ahead to claim there are 3 sealed and 4 resealed.That is wrong,and highly incorrect.

With regards to the cape theory,if they tried with a fake cape they would be found out.Ive never doubted the cape itself,just the cardback originality with the figure.There is no way to tell whether that was the original figure to that card.

Lee

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2 sealed examples, not 3. And 4 opened examples of vinyl caped bubbles attached to Palitoy cards. And I've claimed the existence of those long before one of the sealed examples was AFA graded.



cheers Jason

I can understand how people can think the reseals out there are no real solid proof that they existed but I'd definitely side with Jason on the issue as I just don't see how all of those examples out there (all from different owners?), would only be sold with VC Jawas. I'm guessing they didn't make any more money out of them than selling loose VCJ's so I don't think anyone was trying to scam anyone. That said though I bet if another reseal surfaces it'll probably have a VC in it to maximise on value due to this recently AFA'd one.

I was thinking some more about when I had mine as a child and one thing is that, as it was the last of the 12 backs I received, it means I had my Large Head Han before this. I'm not sure exactly when the switch went from Pin to Large head on a 12 back but I'm thinking it was a short period due to how few there are compared to the pin head MOC out there. I've in fact only seen one large heard MOC 12 back for sale on ebay in probably the last 5 years. I only mention this as it's maybe why there are only a couple of VCJ MOC's that have ever been seen, due to them being released right at the end of the 12 back era.

Again I know this maybe is a bit off topic here but I still think it's good to have any bits of information on this and I'd still like to know if anyone out there from the UK also had a VCJ when they were growing up in the 70's, it won't prove anything but I'm just interested in the numbers.

2 sealed examples, not 3. And 4 opened examples of vinyl caped bubbles attached to Palitoy cards. And I've claimed the existence of those long before one of the sealed examples was AFA graded.



cheers Jason[/quote]


There may also be 1 more opened example floating around which is the one a saw on the Australian ebay a few years ago. It was fully sealed but the top had been sliced along the top and 2 sides to take the figure out. There was no figure with it or footer but it did have the clear plastic backing sheet with it. It's the one thing I still regret not placing a bid on!

Not sure if this is one of the ones from above although It didn't have a hole in the top of it as the top was still attached by the front edge.

I am no expert like some of you guys regarding this piece or carded in general but can say the evidence is making me lean towards the existence of the Palitoy vcj to be legit, I do think the fact that its not clear if TD examined this piece or not is something to be concerned about as we all know the afa make boo boos (the ewok with the wrong head dress comes to mind :lol: ) from time to time. Did the owner ever here back from the afa or TD?

I think Frank was on point about sending it to ukg and letting Steve and JS take a look at it, only thing is it might be a little difficult to look closely with it being incased!

When all is said and done if the owner thinks its legit and highly respected members of the collecting community feel the same that's good enough for me, though I can see why some are not convinced.

I think the fact that this thread has prompted Jason to look into the bubble transition on the Palitoy cards is a great step forward towards proving the figures legitimacy. The write up on your site Jason is very convincing and it does indeed go hand in hand with the Kenner 12 back bubble transition.

Makes for great reading but I sincerely hope that AFA do not use your latest research and pretend it was their own when they do finally issue that COA/grading report (wonder if we have any AFA Lurkers..lol) :lol:

To think that all those pictures could have been found via google and made sense of years ago eh?

What is with all the doubting?

Palitoy cards are rare, many MOC versions exist only in one or two examples and for all AFAs faults surely they can spot a reseal/fake? If this was a previously undocumented power droid there would be nowhere near this fuss.

And showing this to UKG will do nothing to lessen the doubt unless they have graded Palitoy VCJs in the past - which we are pretty safe in assuming that they haven't

If this is a fake then someone has come up with such an amazing fake that we might as well all give up now.

Just enjoy it for what it is

Personally if this item has been faked then I'm more than happy to buy another from them as I know it won't look out of place in my collection..........hell, I'll even take a reseal ! :lol:

spoons said:

What is with all the doubting?

Palitoy cards are rare, many MOC versions exist only in one or two examples and for all AFAs faults surely they can spot a reseal/fake? If this was a previously undocumented power droid there would be nowhere near this fuss.

And showing this to UKG will do nothing to lessen the doubt unless they have graded Palitoy VCJs in the past - which we are pretty safe in assuming that they haven't

If this is a fake then someone has come up with such an amazing fake that we might as well all give up now.

Just enjoy it for what it is

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Was going to chip in,but couldn't have said it better myself Andy, si I won't bother.

Said it earlier in the thread but will say it again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking more answers and finding out all the information before accepting something. Sometimes it's just nice to know how a figure was deemed original especially by the "authority" and yes I know AFA grading it sealed the deal for many but if we didn't have people to doubt or question these things we would just be accepting AFA's word without all the extra information (just look at what Jason has just pulled together during this thread regarding the bubbles) which people love to read about and learn from. I would hate to blindly accept whatever AFA said without actually learning anything myself. It would give them all the power and turn collectors into sheep.

It's true if it was a less important character or variant not many would care but that isn't to say that everyone would accept it without questioning or that people would stop looking for another example.

Two years ago I discovered an unknown Trilogo variant, I was so happy to have found it that I showed Stephane yet he wasn't convinced it was real which kinda sucked for me as I had it in hand and I was convinced it was legit. Anyways 2 years later I managed to track down a cardback, another sealed example and even found Stephane one which he then bought. After receiving his he agreed it was real, my point: Regardless of what it is, an obscure and unimportant to most card variation or the find of the decade like this Pal VCJ - collectors are totally entitled to want more information or more proof.

Admittedly it can be frustrating for those trying to prove something is real especially if they have a lot to offer in the way of evidence but at the same time it should be expected especially on something this big.