Toytoni card list-am i missing something??

[_Lee_]

Firstly, this is not meant as a dig at any person who has helped with the ToyToni fiasco. I say that because i was the one who informed Joe that Toni was buying up AFA,d loose figures after i sold him a Bossk i got in a trade and only after seeing the secret come out put two and two together

Right, now im sure we are all grateful for the work Jason has put in on the TT saga, but im getting concerned that definitively naming a cardback type and judging figures because of that isnt right. Ive read through a lot of the original TT reveal thread and there is nothing to state what cardback types were used. I brought up the fact that although Fett 65 backs are apparently not affected even though someone had posted one (although we do need a rear photo) this usnt entirely correct. I also know for a fact that Toni was selling 45 and 65 backs for years, and when demand for cardback types became higher he eventually ran out of some. I even spoke to Toni on the phone in around 98-99 and wanted to purchase a Fett at £140 or so, and he DEFINATELY asked me which cardback i wanted and whether or not i wanted a normal or a Tri Fett. Looking back now, i know why he asked as he was making them to order.Even though i sold it after owning it for around 3 months as something didnt look right ( and i told that to a friend around 5-6 years back) i was always dubious of Toni after that.

I suppose the question i am asking is why and how certain card types are being mentioned, when there is no mention of cardback types on the original sales list JJ posted. Ok, some detective work in the community and AFA figures are being used ( why and how we can rely on those ****ers no one knows) but i dont think this is enough to conclusively prove that certain cardbacks were used. We have apparently gone from a handwritten scribble to knowing exactly which cards they were on, and this list going public. I fear this is scaring and worrying a lot of people for no reason and although TT made this shite, he also had some genuine sealed figures etc.

Again, this isnt meant to start a war but id like to fully understand how and why such information is made public when in my own opinion it isnt entirely accurate. However i know some people will use that list as gospel,and i respect that fully. Naming exact quantities of card types doesnt sit right with me and its a questiin i wanted to ask.

Lee

 

[SOJ]

Other than the example Fett (posted by a potential scam artist) are there any other cards your concerned about.

 

[_Lee_]

Hey bud,

Im not talking about that Fett. Theres an example posted by a forum member in the TT info thread, which is stated as a 65 back-it was ironed.

My concerns are about Fett, especially as i spoke with Toni about them years back. However i am a bit concerned about the fact that cardback types are being stated as fact-there isnt enough proof.

 

[jambobbyb]

I'm convinced that Fett posted by bubba Fett was a Toni but I discarded his description of it as he is a well known scammer who is aware of the TT situation so he lied about the number in the hope someone would try and buy it.
No idea on your actual question though

 

[mr_palitoy]

It was fairly easy to work out the card types by looking at the AFA population reports, Toni's eBay sales account and toytoni.com. Also by looking at the bubble types used on the cards in question. I also worked with Wolfgang on the German/clipper cards to better catergorise them better. Nobody cast doubt on those findings back then.

We talked about 65 fett on another thread and I asked several times for some evidence of that ironed colour mismatch being a 65 back, ie the back of the card. I haven't seen any yet. Everything I have put on my palitoy guide has hard photographed and documented evidence to back it up. That fett doesn't have that yet. Testimony from 20 years ago is great to hear, but we also need the solid proof on some cards today. When I see that, I'll be happy to add it to the guide.

Cheers Jason

 

[_Lee_]

I,d pretty much say that many collectors know that Toni was selling both 45 and 65 back cards, and had been for many years, and i think im also right in saying that Lee B, Chris etc looked at that particular card at FF.

My main concern Jason is that you seem to be listing certain cardbacks as definate forged figures, when this may not be the case. Adding cardback quantities used is also shocking. Just because it says that many on the handwritten list, it doesnt serve as definate proof. You seem to be deciding how many are out there using this list, and hearsay. My concern is that you could be causing more of an issue which could come back to haunt you.

I think many of us were duped by Toni, myself included- but we have to remember we are going on very little in the scheme of things. The only person wyo knows the story us Toni, however i am pretty confident that he wasnt the only one at it. We all heard about the guy buying loads of Fetts....

Something is still being withheld from this farce, and i strongly beleive there is more info to be found out...

 

[mr_palitoy]

I,d pretty much say that many collectors know that Toni was selling both 45 and 65 back cards, and had been for many years, and i think im also right in saying that Lee B, Chris etc looked at that particular card at FF.

My main concern Jason is that you seem to be listing certain cardbacks as definate forged figures, when this may not be the case. Adding cardback quantities used is also shocking. Just because it says that many on the handwritten list, it doesnt serve as definate proof. You seem to be deciding how many are out there using this list, and hearsay. My concern is that you could be causing more of an issue which could come back to haunt you.

I think many of us were duped by Toni, myself included- but we have to remember we are going on very little in the scheme of things. The only person wyo knows the story us Toni, however i am pretty confident that he wasnt the only one at it. We all heard about the guy buying loads of Fetts....

Something is still being withheld from this farce, and i strongly beleive there is more info to be found out...

The numbers on the list are a guide, but presumably Arthur counted them so the numbers on there are somewhat representative of the number of unused cardbacks
that were in the lot. The card/figure combos that I have listed are ones which Toni is known to have produced. That doesn't mean that all of those card/figure combos
are Tonis. My guide shows for those card/figure combos, which bubbles are considered genuine and which ones aren't. In almost all cases for palitoy, Toni used the
wrong bubbles compared to shop sold cards and used cardbacks with bubble imprints on them. I think the logic is sound.

It gets harder on the one's where the bubble he used is the same as one's used in the factory, notably the double stem bubble he used on palitoy 45b and german/clipper
esb cards. The lack of pressing/indentation on the back of the card can be used as a clincher on a lot of these cards.

When I look at a card, I take all of these factors into account when making a judgement. AFA/UKG really should be taking up the slack in being able to identify
these things, we've shown them how. And they will have the pieces in hand, as opposed to looking at grainy pixelated pictures on the web.

cheers Jason

 

[_Lee_]

Good post Jason

I agree-AFA and UKG should be doing something about this. Cant see it happening though.

 

[jedisearcher]

The list has to be used as a guide only. I bought an at risk MOC recently but was happy to do so because the bubble wasn't a normal Toni one, it was as mint as a Toni and it had some sticker damage. All said, probably not a Toni.

People still have to do their own research.