Toy Toni Han

[yoda]

Hi guys how much would this figure be worth? I bought this years back before I knew this whole toy toni story If I was to sell on e-bay not sure yet if going to. If I do what would be the best way to list the figure? Or just list it as the title says? thanks. Or should I just keep him? I was trying to get graded figures of all my original figures I ever owned.

 

[_Lee_]

A majority of Tonis used AFA 85-90 loose figures to make. Obviously its not going to cmmand what you paid, but i think you could possibly squeeze £100 or somewhere near that still. They are still being collected as curio items so someone will pay what they think its worth.

 

[yoda]

Cheers thanks Lee, I think way back if I can remember I could have paid around £200 -40 for it not sure. I now realise I jumped in and never done my homework on the figures. Looks like if I sell it I am gonna have to take a hit on it. Thanks for that it will help me decide whether to sell or not.

 

[Andreg]

Question,

Do these "toni´s" have an original bubble? Also, do they have the waffle pattern?

 

[theforceuk]

Question,

Do these "toni´s" have an original bubble? Also, do they have the waffle pattern?

Factory overstock bubbles, so yes original and no TT have the waffle pattern as far as I no.

 

[Andreg]

Question,

Do these "toni´s" have an original bubble? Also, do they have the waffle pattern?

Factory overstock bubbles, so yes original and no TT have the waffle pattern as far as I no.

Thank´s!

 

[Ian_C]

No waffle pattern, as they were applied with a regular iron as the heat source.

There is disagreement over this, as they do have value and are made with original parts, but I am of the opinion that this can be passed off as a legit factory sealed item, which it isn't, so I would *gasp* open it up and ensure no future collector can possibly be scammed by it.

Ian

 

[Ross_Barr]

In fact I bought the exact same German GM Han AFA 85 about a year ago. I am a Han Solo original focus collector, so thought it would be an interesting although dubious item to have in my collection. I won't ever sell it, so having it with me I viewed as safer than having it circling around to fool unsuspecting buyers.

I believe I paid $175 at the time, which is about 115 GBP.

 

[yoda]

What about the figures he used were they also factory stock? Or did he buy mint figures and use them?

 

[Ian_C]

What about the figures he used were they also factory stock? Or did he buy mint figures and use them?

He was buying mint figures and placing them inside the bubbles, which has created probable issues with proper COO's, proper versions of weapons, etc.

Ian

 

[stormcab]

I bought a Fett for £110 back around 1996. Said on here it was a TT. I sold it on eBay recently with full disclosure and it went for £195. I've seen others with non disclosure & full disclosure still fetch £600.

 

[Andreg]

I think I paid 235GBP for my Toni> HothTrooper on the Bay.

Btw, has there been any comments regarding this from UKG? Since they were the one who graded it as authentic, shouldn't they have som kind of responsibility?

 

[Mr-shifter]

I think I paid 235GBP for my Toni> HothTrooper on the Bay.

Btw, has there been any comments regarding this from UKG? Since they were the one who graded it as authentic, shouldn't they have som kind of responsibility?

It's complicated. None of them have publicly commented on these items however neither will grade them anymore, so although they won't admit they are fake they won't grade them just incase they are. I suggest there are libel implications.

If you read both companies small print it states that they can't be held responsible if they **** up (not exact words) so grading is no guarantee of authenticity. They have made many mistakes on previously graded items. But that's a whole different long discussion for another day.

 

[Andreg]

I think I paid 235GBP for my Toni> HothTrooper on the Bay.

Btw, has there been any comments regarding this from UKG? Since they were the one who graded it as authentic, shouldn't they have som kind of responsibility?

It's complicated. None of them have publicly commented on these items however neither will grade them anymore, so although they won't admit they are fake they won't grade them just incase they are. I suggest there are libel implications.

If you read both companies small print it states that they can't be held responsible if they **** up (not exact words) so grading is no guarantee of authenticity. They have made many mistakes on previously graded items. But that's a whole different long discussion for another day.

Hmm....sounds prrrrreeeeetty fishy imo.

Well it´s been determined that a guy called Toni did this and that, and due to the expert craftsmanship used he managed to "fool" a particular bunch of experts which resulted in this heist being successful. Would this heist been as successful without the grading? Question, was it you guys (by you I mean the collecting community/private collectors etc) OR was it the grading companies that got to the bottom with this, finding out all details on how it played out, were it all began and all that stuff about the over-stock find etc etc?

So basically, there are hundreds of Toni´s floating around the world with both AFA and UKG grading attached, although mainly UKG right? What I don´t get is how these grading experts "didn´t notice" the obvious tells that you guys did. Come on.......

If this hasn´t been said before I´m saying it now. The main villain aka Mastermind behind this whole thing is UKG, and not just a guy called Toni.

 

[SublevelStudios]

So basically, there are hundreds of Toni´s floating around the world with both AFA and UKG grading attached, although mainly UKG right? What I don´t get is how these grading experts "didn´t notice" the obvious tells that you guys did. Come on.......

If this hasn´t been said before I´m saying it now. The main villain aka Mastermind behind this whole thing is UKG, and not just a guy called Toni.

Both UKG and AFA had absolutely no part in the scam. The whole thing was bought to light by collector/dealer Jason Joiner who had information attaining to the purchase of the cards and bubbles bought by TT.

Both serious/expert collectors and the grading companies were fooled by them until this information was available, because at that point, the concept of making up MOC's from ORIGINAL factory parts on a large scale was never considered.

There is thread after thread about it, bring yourself up to speed and you'll see that the only person to blame is TT for the whole thing.

 

[Ian_C]

It's been a while since I looked at the details, so bear with me on any minor inaccuracies.

Toni went to great lengths to make them as flawless as possible. He tried a number of methods of heat sealing them before he found one that looked almost perfect. Mostly, it involved an iron with which he melted the plastic bubble to the card. They looked so close to the real deal, that even though there were some questions for several years, the vast majority of the collector community accepted them as legit, and then AFA/UKG were also fooled and graded many of them.

Questions were raised as to how one single seller (Toni), had managed to acquire so many duplicates of cherry mint carded figures. When Jason Joiner came forward and divulged Toni had been involved in the purchase of many factory overstock cardbacks and bubbles, suspicions came to a head. Several people pored over them to find any inconsistencies. One of the best in my opinion was the work done by Wolff (usually known as wbobafett online), who showed where Toni's iron was unable to form a complete seal on the bottom of the card when compared to a legit one, as well as some fancy diagrams showing how many of the bubbles were off center to a degree you couldn't blame it on factory variation. These were VERY minor points, so minor it took years before they were noticed.

What makes these unique, and makes them valuable to some people, is that these are not authentic factory sealed figures - but they also can't be called reproductions. The only part of these that are repro are the heat seals. They also don't use factory fresh figures, but rather minty mint loose figures Toni managed to purchase. I'd actually love to see the look on a U grader's face when they discover their U-graded figure isn't really uncirculated at all. A lot of money was invested in these before the scam was discovered, and as such, several people who were burned have justified keeping them by saying they're all original parts, and this has helped to keep these somewhat valuable. I am VERY protective of the collector community getting scammed, and take the hardcore approach that these are worth no more than a mint loose figure, combined with a factory fresh loose bubble and cardback. Actually, they're worth less, as the non-factory seal, in my opinion, means those once perfect cardbacks and bubbles are now damaged. I'd like to see every single one opened up, so no one ever gets suckered into paying full price for a legit graded example, only to receive a bunch of parts with a fake seal keeping them together.

As for the grading companies, UKG acknowledges them and will not grade them at all any more, while AFA refuses to accept they fell for it, and will not even put any sort of disclaimer on known examples in their database. This hurts the community, as with an increasing number of people relying on the word of AFA ( :? ), having these in circulation without any identification for what they are shows an incredible amount of irresponsibility on the part of AFA. While they are not to blame for the scam happening, they're not exactly helping to eliminate it either.

Ian

 

[mr_palitoy]

On the subject of UKG and AFA, I've had various informal discussions with both Steve at UKG and Chad at AFA about them manning up and sorting out the graded Toni's mess. No joy yet.

Jason

 

[Andreg]

On the subject of UKG and AFA, I've had various informal discussions with both Steve at UKG and Chad at AFA about them manning up and sorting out the graded Toni's mess. No joy yet.

Jason

This...

IMO, they should definitely man up and sort this mess out. For god´s sake.....they both claim themselves to be the ULTRA-EXPERTS of the planet earth when it comes to vintage toys, don´t they? Earning money in grading vintage toys and putting a seal of authenticity on it. I mean.....they even call themselves AUTHORITY :lol:

The biggest blunder a company like this could to is to grade a non-authentic item and charging money for it. AND THE EFFING DID IT, not only once but on hundreds of cards out there that STILL floats around with their name on it, stamped like a police/government badge, loooool.

And they are not willing to do a d+mn thing about it.

Where in the UK are they based btw? Is it a walk-in shop?

 

[indianawars]

It's funny that at one stage I was quite heavily into buying and sending items off for grading... But now, I really don't care for their opinions. It's people like Lee, Jason, along with other forum members that are the real authentication experts when it comes down to these items.

 

[Ian_C]

IMO, they should definitely man up and sort this mess out. For god´s sake.....they both claim themselves to be the ULTRA-EXPERTS of the planet earth when it comes to vintage toys, don´t they? Earning money in grading vintage toys and putting a seal of authenticity on it. I mean.....they even call themselves AUTHORITY :lol:

The biggest blunder a company like this could to is to grade a non-authentic item and charging money for it. AND THE EFFING DID IT, not only once but on hundreds of cards out there that STILL floats around with their name on it, stamped like a police/government badge, loooool.

And they are not willing to do a d+mn thing about it.

An anti-AFA post? I'M IN!!!

For the sake of not having evidence, I will exclude UKG from this, because I have not seen evidence of them making mistakes aside from TT's. I'm sure they have, I just haven't seen it.

It's not just the TT's AFA have screwed up. I have seen them grade not just figures with the wrong weapon, but there are examples out there of AFA letting repro weapons slip through the cracks and get graded. I know offhand of a Dengar example, but the other ones escape my memory at the moment.

How can anyone collect and sleep peacefully having paid to have an 'authenticated' product, when there are examples of graded repros? It takes the guarantee out of the equation, and allows a small trace of doubt to come in.

They are highly inconsistent in their grading too. I sold off a Canadian 12 back GDE DS Commander in the spring, and the new owner got it graded (I refuse to grade ANYTHING). I ended up getting it back again (and promptly busted it out of the case), but not before I took a pic of it graded. Check out this. Mine - virtually no visible flaws, a bubble with the very slightest factory flaw in the top corner, unpunched, no veining, and it got AFA80, with subgrades C80, B85, and F85. The Chewbacca compared to it is punched, obvious veining at the hangar tab going to the edge of the card, a jagged edge on the top of the bubble, etc. It gets AFA80, with subgrades C80, B85, F85. Side by side, they are worlds apart visually - yet AFA gives them the EXACT same grade. Someone explain how they can justify their claims of consistency.....

The key to this hobby is EDUCATION. There is NOTHING that AFA can do that an educated collector can't match as far as authenticating. Unfortunately, as people new to the hobby seem to be in a rush to accomplish in weeks/months what most of us took years/decades to accomplish, they rely on someone else doing the homework for them. I personally cannot comprehend how someone willing to drop $7500 on a POTF Yak, for example, drops that money based purely on the opinion on a 'grader' that has been known to make mistakes, and to not learn how to identify fakes themselves. It's a serious lack of accountability for knowing just what the hell someone is buying.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of AFA.

Ian