Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller
- Thread starter Frunkstar
- Start date
Ian_C
Jedi Master
laurencedyer said:
Oh hell, sorry to hear about this Laurence. Awful situation, and I am sure I speak for others when I thank you for making time to post this when you obviously have other **** going on.
One thing I noticed with Laurence's text images, which I may have missed earlier in the thread, is Jeff knows his baggies well enough to identify them by type. That can only mean he has spent time looking at them all for identification purposes, so I just don't buy any reasoning that he didn't notice especially some of the more glaring issues in authenticity.
Ian
Frunkstar
Grand Master
I wanted to say a few words about the pod cast to make clear my position regarding it & the team.
First & foremost - they do not deserve any negative messages or personal attacks & the finger of blame being pointed, they did what they felt was right & I regard many of them as good collecting friends, please stop it folks, they did what they thought was right at the time end of.
Though done with the best of intentions I disagree with it having been done for a number of reasons which I think are well justified which I will list below -
1. the OP on here was just the preliminary finding & more info was being gathered to back up the initial post, before that could happen the onslaught started about wording & he said she said which turned the whole thread in to a mess & only further delayed more evidence being presented & yes there is more still, so in short the pod cast was done before 90% of the information needed was even addressed.
2. Jeff spoke to myself on the phone I even helped him to the point of saying what evidence he would need to present to clear this up if indeed he is innocent, he agreed to come on here & put his information forward & I do believe if the podcast had not gone ahead he would have had no option but to have come on to face the music & subsequently all the folks on here would have had the same chance to either vindicate him on his evidence or further investigate him accordingly in the same written manor that they have with myself, this was about hard facts not if he or I are nice guys, & I made the choice of it being on a platform that is more permanent then face book or a spoken interview for the plain & simple reason that everyone can look at/digest & make their minds up about it & comment on both sides easily, Jeff saying he is not tech savvy is a total fabrication, he has been using ebay for a number of years easily & it's a more problematic format that a forum by a big margin when you start to consider paypal/returns & dealing with off ebay sales & returns via email to boot.
3. the biggest issue for me was that although the podcast could well have been an acceptable format for his reply to this even if not ideal it was not due to insufficient information at hand for the team to go on for adequate & repellent questions in the form of directed bullet points, below are a few straight off the top of my head that ideally should have been thought about & exactly what I have told Richard myself via FB message -
1. have you got some proof in photo form of all the returned fakes that you have taken out of circulation.
2. Have you got any records & or screen shots of payments made on bulk lots, with lists & photos of the fakes being offered to you.
3. can you comment on where all the trash monster & commando suspect baggies came from.
4. whats the story behind the fake Bossk mailers boxes & paperwork.
5.some time ago a member on RS called you out about fake paperwork on an EB set & also a fake box on a boba fett mailer can you explain.
6. may we ask how long you have had the palitoy POTF baggies which are in question & do you remember where they came from.
7.we see you have a genuine ESB-b baggie in your own collection, how come you have been selling others in multiples which are clearly different than the one in your own collection - the list goes on & on.
So in short if the podcast team had has the forethought to simple contact the investigations team prior to the interview many of these points could have been raised & a clearer picture come to in the interview.
As said I am in no way knocking what they did or any of them personally, I think they were "trying" do do the right thing, though I am knocking the way it was hastily & haphazardly mangled together without any serious consideration beforehand.
First & foremost - they do not deserve any negative messages or personal attacks & the finger of blame being pointed, they did what they felt was right & I regard many of them as good collecting friends, please stop it folks, they did what they thought was right at the time end of.
Though done with the best of intentions I disagree with it having been done for a number of reasons which I think are well justified which I will list below -
1. the OP on here was just the preliminary finding & more info was being gathered to back up the initial post, before that could happen the onslaught started about wording & he said she said which turned the whole thread in to a mess & only further delayed more evidence being presented & yes there is more still, so in short the pod cast was done before 90% of the information needed was even addressed.
2. Jeff spoke to myself on the phone I even helped him to the point of saying what evidence he would need to present to clear this up if indeed he is innocent, he agreed to come on here & put his information forward & I do believe if the podcast had not gone ahead he would have had no option but to have come on to face the music & subsequently all the folks on here would have had the same chance to either vindicate him on his evidence or further investigate him accordingly in the same written manor that they have with myself, this was about hard facts not if he or I are nice guys, & I made the choice of it being on a platform that is more permanent then face book or a spoken interview for the plain & simple reason that everyone can look at/digest & make their minds up about it & comment on both sides easily, Jeff saying he is not tech savvy is a total fabrication, he has been using ebay for a number of years easily & it's a more problematic format that a forum by a big margin when you start to consider paypal/returns & dealing with off ebay sales & returns via email to boot.
3. the biggest issue for me was that although the podcast could well have been an acceptable format for his reply to this even if not ideal it was not due to insufficient information at hand for the team to go on for adequate & repellent questions in the form of directed bullet points, below are a few straight off the top of my head that ideally should have been thought about & exactly what I have told Richard myself via FB message -
1. have you got some proof in photo form of all the returned fakes that you have taken out of circulation.
2. Have you got any records & or screen shots of payments made on bulk lots, with lists & photos of the fakes being offered to you.
3. can you comment on where all the trash monster & commando suspect baggies came from.
4. whats the story behind the fake Bossk mailers boxes & paperwork.
5.some time ago a member on RS called you out about fake paperwork on an EB set & also a fake box on a boba fett mailer can you explain.
6. may we ask how long you have had the palitoy POTF baggies which are in question & do you remember where they came from.
7.we see you have a genuine ESB-b baggie in your own collection, how come you have been selling others in multiples which are clearly different than the one in your own collection - the list goes on & on.
So in short if the podcast team had has the forethought to simple contact the investigations team prior to the interview many of these points could have been raised & a clearer picture come to in the interview.
As said I am in no way knocking what they did or any of them personally, I think they were "trying" do do the right thing, though I am knocking the way it was hastily & haphazardly mangled together without any serious consideration beforehand.
Frunkstar
Grand Master
Ian_C said:One thing I noticed with Laurence's text images, which I may have missed earlier in the thread, is Jeff knows his baggies well enough to identify them by type. That can only mean he has spent time looking at them all for identification purposes, so I just don't buy any reasoning that he didn't notice especially some of the more glaring issues in authenticity.
Ian
I know Jeff uses SWFUK all the time for my guide as a reference to I.D his baggies, oddly enough not a single one of those Palitoy-i yaks were for sale in the until recently confirmed open baggies types till I added them to the guide, I will also go a step further to say that although they have been confirmed as a baggie type, with the simple nature of the baggie (it having never been sealed & open one end) it is the perfect target for a simple figure swap, something I have said many times not just on here, although a known & confirmed baggie, there is simple no way to authenticate one as being put up for sale as having the correct figure & as such a type no grading company would authenticate less grade.
Till I put that type in the guide I had only ever seen tape sealed examples of the yak in that baggie & only maybe 5 or 6 confirmed to exist worldwide - suddenly there are loads of examples available for sale, not just from Jeff may I add.
Frunkstar
Grand Master
Frunkstar said:Ian_C said:One thing I noticed with Laurence's text images, which I may have missed earlier in the thread, is Jeff knows his baggies well enough to identify them by type. That can only mean he has spent time looking at them all for identification purposes, so I just don't buy any reasoning that he didn't notice especially some of the more glaring issues in authenticity.
Ian
I know Jeff uses SWFUK all the time for my guide as a reference to I.D his baggies, oddly enough not a single one of those Palitoy-i yaks were for sale in the until recently confirmed open baggies types till I added them to the guide, I will also go a step further to say that although they have been confirmed as a baggie type, with the simple nature of the baggie (it having never been sealed & open one end) it is the perfect target for a simple figure swap, something I have said many times not just on here, although a known & confirmed baggie, there is simple no way to authenticate one as being put up for sale as having the correct figure & as such a type no grading company would authenticate less grade.
Till I put that type in the guide I had only ever seen tape sealed examples of the yak in that baggie & only maybe 5 or 6 confirmed to exist worldwide - suddenly there are loads of examples available for sale, not just from Jeff may I add.
EDIT: & always in the open ended baggies
laurencedyer
Jedi Knight
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Funnily enough, Jeff responded to me with this communication whilst I was on my Amanaman run.
I pasted a copy of my research thread from this very forum and his responce was Wow and that he would read it in his spare time, which to me suggested that he had opened it up and took an initial view.
Not so tech unsavvy I'd suggest.
The art of an illusionist is in the misdirection!!!
I pasted a copy of my research thread from this very forum and his responce was Wow and that he would read it in his spare time, which to me suggested that he had opened it up and took an initial view.
Not so tech unsavvy I'd suggest.
The art of an illusionist is in the misdirection!!!
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lejackal
Grand Master
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I'm far from defending the guy but not entirely sure its fair to post his phone number on a public forum
laurencedyer
Jedi Knight
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lejackal said:
You are totally correct and I hadn't noticed it was in the screen shot.
I have temporarily removed it and will edit the screen shot and repost.
Richard_H
Grand Master
I'm going to put a transcript of comments from the podcast here for historical purposes. This may take a while (I've lots to do) so bear with me. It will just be the facts and not the waffle. Here's the first question I will tackle as it's the most damning at the moment.
Q. (58:25) I'm going to ask you a question that's specific about baggies with red text.......
Jeff - I've never sold a baggie with red text....I've sent pictures... I've still got them in my collection. I've never sold any.
Follow up Q. Ok, because Frank says that he's seen them listed on your ebay account even though you knew that they were not correct and he told you 6 months ago (edit - should be 6 months before hand) that they weren't correct. You're saying that's not true and they weren't on your ebay account?
Jeff - No. I haven't sold a red text baggie on my account. I can't remember... I've got 3 red text baggies....this was about 5, maybe 4 years ago and I bought them all. I said to Frank, "have you seen these before?" and he said "I think they're fake". And I said ok. I've still got them. I've still got them in a box. But I've not sold them on. Because.. you know. I'm a little bit dubious sometimes because Frank says sometimes that something may be fake or not legit then all of a sudden it pops up on his site, actually these are determined legit... I don't like taking them out their bag really because just in case that bag was legit..... somebody said I should destroy them just in case they got in the wrong hands, it's a good point.... I didn't think it that way.
Follow up Q. So, I'm going to clarify that because a couple of people have asked about the red text baggies... you're saying about 4-5 years ago you contacted Frank about these red text baggies... he said they're either fake or rebagged from another toy line.... and then he said 6 months after that date they were listed on the ebay account. You're saying no, that's not true.
Jeff - I can't remember ever selling these erm.. they're folded....their almost rolled, someone tapped them and then they've stamped MIHK over the top, and they've gone over the top of the cellotape as well, when you take the cellotape off the actual Hong Kong stamp is on the cellotape. There's (indeciperhable) on the bag first it's been taped over... I've never sold. Did anyone show me where I've sold that on ebay? I've never sold one on ebay as far as I can remember.
Follow up Q - that's a good point. If any of our listeners is aware or has any evidence at all of a red text baggie being sold on ebay we'd like to see the picture.
Jeff - I've never seen the red baggie being sold on ebay. I do know I have a red text made in macou (sp?) baggie which is on Frank's site there... and that's got red text on it and I asked Frank about that and he said that's genuine... (then goes into a description of baggie with O and U)... and I want to show Frank...I wouldn't know the value of that.. I put things a higher value to see if they sell, if they don't sell I drop it by £10 or £15. If they don't sell I take them off and put them back in the box. I just see what sort of interest there are on it. It's not that I need to sell them.
End 1:02:03
Q. (58:25) I'm going to ask you a question that's specific about baggies with red text.......
Jeff - I've never sold a baggie with red text....I've sent pictures... I've still got them in my collection. I've never sold any.
Follow up Q. Ok, because Frank says that he's seen them listed on your ebay account even though you knew that they were not correct and he told you 6 months ago (edit - should be 6 months before hand) that they weren't correct. You're saying that's not true and they weren't on your ebay account?
Jeff - No. I haven't sold a red text baggie on my account. I can't remember... I've got 3 red text baggies....this was about 5, maybe 4 years ago and I bought them all. I said to Frank, "have you seen these before?" and he said "I think they're fake". And I said ok. I've still got them. I've still got them in a box. But I've not sold them on. Because.. you know. I'm a little bit dubious sometimes because Frank says sometimes that something may be fake or not legit then all of a sudden it pops up on his site, actually these are determined legit... I don't like taking them out their bag really because just in case that bag was legit..... somebody said I should destroy them just in case they got in the wrong hands, it's a good point.... I didn't think it that way.
Follow up Q. So, I'm going to clarify that because a couple of people have asked about the red text baggies... you're saying about 4-5 years ago you contacted Frank about these red text baggies... he said they're either fake or rebagged from another toy line.... and then he said 6 months after that date they were listed on the ebay account. You're saying no, that's not true.
Jeff - I can't remember ever selling these erm.. they're folded....their almost rolled, someone tapped them and then they've stamped MIHK over the top, and they've gone over the top of the cellotape as well, when you take the cellotape off the actual Hong Kong stamp is on the cellotape. There's (indeciperhable) on the bag first it's been taped over... I've never sold. Did anyone show me where I've sold that on ebay? I've never sold one on ebay as far as I can remember.
Follow up Q - that's a good point. If any of our listeners is aware or has any evidence at all of a red text baggie being sold on ebay we'd like to see the picture.
Jeff - I've never seen the red baggie being sold on ebay. I do know I have a red text made in macou (sp?) baggie which is on Frank's site there... and that's got red text on it and I asked Frank about that and he said that's genuine... (then goes into a description of baggie with O and U)... and I want to show Frank...I wouldn't know the value of that.. I put things a higher value to see if they sell, if they don't sell I drop it by £10 or £15. If they don't sell I take them off and put them back in the box. I just see what sort of interest there are on it. It's not that I need to sell them.
End 1:02:03
First I have to salute Edd for his shift yesterday you deserve a medal mate ; )
Sending personnel attacks towards people via pm is not cool, I think it's clear the PC team jumped the gun and rushed the PC, and I stand by the fact I thought it was tacky, I think there hearts were probably in the right place and the fact jeff was found to be lieing on record Is the one positive to be taking from it....not that there is anything positive about any of this
Some of the posts on here do not make for good reading and are rather embaressing tbh, I've heard people referring to us as "the team" as if it's some kind of them and us type situation and that's not how it is and it's sad that people would think that as all this has been about is getting to the bottom of what's going on regarding these fake baggies and the person they are coming from who has far from straight arrows
Despite the rocky start hope we can all come together as one big team and nail these fakes down as that was the intention from the beginning
Sending personnel attacks towards people via pm is not cool, I think it's clear the PC team jumped the gun and rushed the PC, and I stand by the fact I thought it was tacky, I think there hearts were probably in the right place and the fact jeff was found to be lieing on record Is the one positive to be taking from it....not that there is anything positive about any of this
Some of the posts on here do not make for good reading and are rather embaressing tbh, I've heard people referring to us as "the team" as if it's some kind of them and us type situation and that's not how it is and it's sad that people would think that as all this has been about is getting to the bottom of what's going on regarding these fake baggies and the person they are coming from who has far from straight arrows
Despite the rocky start hope we can all come together as one big team and nail these fakes down as that was the intention from the beginning
Richard_H
Grand Master
Mike, I'll accept that as your viewpoint.
Now see it from most of us neutrals. Look back at the OP - think about 'jumped the gun' what we had, only Edd and yourself posting with regularity and then look at what we were given a few days later. Can you see why most of us were not wanting to jump in line? Some of us have known about this investigation for months. We were waiting for good evidence.
However, you're correct and we need to unite and move on to get the facts.
Now see it from most of us neutrals. Look back at the OP - think about 'jumped the gun' what we had, only Edd and yourself posting with regularity and then look at what we were given a few days later. Can you see why most of us were not wanting to jump in line? Some of us have known about this investigation for months. We were waiting for good evidence.
However, you're correct and we need to unite and move on to get the facts.
laurencedyer
Jedi Knight
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This communication is why I always believed that Jeff had a supply source down south and is possibly a front man for a bigger operation. I always believed there was someone down south sitting on a large cache of baggies that was not Jeff, I also believe and that is all it is my own belief that someone is using him to pump these newer fakes into the market. Let's face it the watering hole in the desert has to dry up at some point but the camel's still need watering.
Just one slip of the tongue, but at 21.15 in the evening he is surely at home and refers to picking it up tomorrow. Not conclusive or incriminating by any means but picking it up from where? The baggie factory guy's?
Just one slip of the tongue, but at 21.15 in the evening he is surely at home and refers to picking it up tomorrow. Not conclusive or incriminating by any means but picking it up from where? The baggie factory guy's?
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I see where you are coming from Richard and I don't think anyone was ever expected to jump into line as people are going to make there own mind up and come to there own conclusion and express own opinions it's clear there was always going to be a **** storm with this how ever it came out
I say you jumped the gun and at the same time we were prob to slow to react, truth be told it all spiralled very quickly
I don't see the point in going over and over the way this all came out, i think everyone has given there opinion on that, I think we should be taking steps forward instead of backwards at this point
I say you jumped the gun and at the same time we were prob to slow to react, truth be told it all spiralled very quickly
I don't see the point in going over and over the way this all came out, i think everyone has given there opinion on that, I think we should be taking steps forward instead of backwards at this point
trappedtexan
Youngling
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- Oct 1, 2015
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Just curious have you guys looked at his recent sales to see if any of those are questionable baggies? Not being a baggie guy I really don't have the skill to look them over but you can go to his feedback and see all the way back to a Yoda baggie probably 15-20 sales there of baggie figures. Also he still has two for sale now, are those correct? Just curious with this breaking it would be pretty bold of him to sell fakes on while we are discussing his sales.
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=j10e5f6f6&ftab=AllFeedback
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=j10e5f6f6&ftab=AllFeedback
trappedtexan
Youngling
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Not sure what to click to edit my post, but you can also go to his sales and hit completed items and see a lot of items he had had recently and there are a ton of baggies in there also.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/j10e5f6f6/m.html?LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684
*I figured out how to edit so I can add these posts together if you want or leave them seperate.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/j10e5f6f6/m.html?LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684
*I figured out how to edit so I can add these posts together if you want or leave them seperate.
It's a good point, I did notice that he pulled this baggie listing following the accusations:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/401256528425
However he didn't end the others still running. Implies he knew this one was fake IMO. I think it was glossed over in the torrent of posts, but I counted 499 baggies sold by Jeff on eBay.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/401256528425
However he didn't end the others still running. Implies he knew this one was fake IMO. I think it was glossed over in the torrent of posts, but I counted 499 baggies sold by Jeff on eBay.
Ross_Barr
Jedi Knight
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2014
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- 258
One thing I don't think many have focused on yet is the ease with which Jeff gave people refunds. Initially, folks cited that as evidence of what a "good guy" Jeff is. As I have heard these refunds discussed over and over, it sounds more to me that he HALF EXPECTED these refund requests to occur (half requested perhaps if he wasn't making these but did have a strong suspicion he was selling on fakes made by someone else) or maybe even FULLY expected the refund requests (as in if he was in fact the one making the fakes so knew they would be noticed by at least a few buyers).
In order to save face and make sure no one made a big commotion, the refunds flowed quickly, no questions asked.
Even the nicest seller at least will occasionally press a buyer asking for a refund request to make sure the buyer isn't being shady himself by doing a bait and switch, etc.
That didn't happen here. Quite the contrary; if a seller knows he is selling fakes, he is taking a risk that the buyer doesn't notice the fake. If the buyer doesn't notice, then the fraud is complete. If the buyer does notice, then the seller can issue a quick refund, get the item back, and sell it on to a new buyer he hopes won't be as detail oriented as the next buyer.
Just my $.02 on an angle I am not sure anyone else has discussed. I'm not so sure Jeff issued refunds quickly with no questions asked because he is a "swell guy." Based on all said so far it's just as likely he was doing so both to cover his track and also because he could just pay to get the item back and pass it on to another buyer he hoped was a schmuck that wouldn't notice the issue. Perhaps that's why he didn't want to send the SW-a bag Han Solo for Andrew Neo through Frank.
My advice is that instead of continuing to fault Frank or the VR guys for the initial presentation of either side, let's focus on where we go from here and continuing to discuss the evidence that has been presented so far. Such as I did above.
In order to save face and make sure no one made a big commotion, the refunds flowed quickly, no questions asked.
Even the nicest seller at least will occasionally press a buyer asking for a refund request to make sure the buyer isn't being shady himself by doing a bait and switch, etc.
That didn't happen here. Quite the contrary; if a seller knows he is selling fakes, he is taking a risk that the buyer doesn't notice the fake. If the buyer doesn't notice, then the fraud is complete. If the buyer does notice, then the seller can issue a quick refund, get the item back, and sell it on to a new buyer he hopes won't be as detail oriented as the next buyer.
Just my $.02 on an angle I am not sure anyone else has discussed. I'm not so sure Jeff issued refunds quickly with no questions asked because he is a "swell guy." Based on all said so far it's just as likely he was doing so both to cover his track and also because he could just pay to get the item back and pass it on to another buyer he hoped was a schmuck that wouldn't notice the issue. Perhaps that's why he didn't want to send the SW-a bag Han Solo for Andrew Neo through Frank.
My advice is that instead of continuing to fault Frank or the VR guys for the initial presentation of either side, let's focus on where we go from here and continuing to discuss the evidence that has been presented so far. Such as I did above.
Frunkstar
Grand Master
edd_jedi said:
I am also of the firm mind the power droid is a fake & it was pulled due to being so, though the ROTJ-a thats still listed (wait for it to disappear) is another that is in question but has not yet been dealt with in detail, but it will be, I have cross checked it against confirmed legit examples & there is an issue with it, pointless it being removed as I have one here I bought from him when he listed the first, I jumped on it as its one I had been trying to track down for many a year & it being insanely difficult to get with it only making one confirmed appearance n a MP, maybe 2 but thats not confirmed, so when another turned up the following week from the same seller I was like wow another, then another & another &,well you get the picture.
I will post my finding about this particular baggie type as soon as I am able, I have not been as active as I would like, but have a few things going on, which include a stinking cold & no water at all or heating of any kind in the home due to a back boiler leak, so please consider this if you are wondering WTF I am with further evidence, I will try to start digesting all the emails between myself & Jeff tomorrow, one thing is certain, he is not just selling things from his own collection of 1000 baggies he has had from many years from his own collection, I have multiple emails with him sharing this large batch & that large next batch he has coming in from the states for onward sale & yes I will get all the screen shots on here in due time to back up what I am saying, i am as I have said only one man though & I can't be on here for 60 hours a day when there's only 24 & many of those house taken up by other commitments like family.
Please be patient folks, more is soon to be forthcoming, though as has been clearly stated by others on here - no concrete proof he is actually making them himself, as short of photos of him painting them himself it's a point that may well never be confirmed nor disproved unless he would like to come on & shown us some evidence to the contrary which I would suggest is the way forward as there must be some kind of paper-trail with the sum's involved surely??
