Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

mr_palitoy

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itfciain said:
I always thought it would be funny if someone sent a TT in for Ugrading - wonder if AFA would Ugrade it or not ?

They reject any suspect Tonis now.

The funny thing with ugrading is that there exists somewhere an action figure which was:-

1) Handled by someone on the factory floor at Coalville when they slapped it on a card
2) Handled by and excited uber brat as he ripped it off the card one Xmas in 1980 something
3) Inserted up the dogs bottom for giggles by said uber brat
4) Handled by various toy collctors who owned over the years
5) Several of those who inserted it up their own bottom for giggles
6) Handled by Toy Toni when he slapped it on a cardback
7) Not before he inserted it up his own bottom for giggles
8) Handled by several other collectors who owned it
9) One of which had a dog which got at it
10) Handled by the AFA chimp when they opened said Toni
11) And then slapped a loose U90 grade on it.

:)

Jason
 

Mr-shifter

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Toni has sold plenty of ugrades in the past, mostly stuff he has loads of (hoth stormies for example). I did raise the point early on in this debate that if his alleged antics meant that any suspect graded moc should now be disregarded as fake then any u graded figure that was on his list should be disregarded as it is impossible for any grading agency to categorically confirm it was from a factory sealed moc.

But people that collect these things are selfish greedy cunts anyway so I don't suppose they would let common sense get in the way of destroying this hobby one piece at a time.
 

Mr-shifter

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Anyhow. Didn't mean to derail the thread. An interesting observation grant. Perhaps he got hold of Baggie overstock (or potentially overstock figures). It would be great to get a bunch of these and investigate further coo consistencies or inconsistencies to get a better picture.
 

benny100

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Not to derail the interesting points you all raise, but he has a Jedi Bossk, Ig-88 and Power Droid all minty for under £100! Not saying they're suspect, just seem a decent price!
 

Stargeezer

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mr_palitoy said:
itfciain said:
I always thought it would be funny if someone sent a TT in for Ugrading - wonder if AFA would Ugrade it or not ?

They reject any suspect Tonis now.

The funny thing with ugrading is that there exists somewhere an action figure which was:-

1) Handled by someone on the factory floor at Coalville when they slapped it on a card
2) Handled by and excited uber brat as he ripped it off the card one Xmas in 1980 something
3) Inserted up the dogs bottom for giggles by said uber brat
4) Handled by various toy collctors who owned over the years
5) Several of those who inserted it up their own bottom for giggles
6) Handled by Toy Toni when he slapped it on a cardback
7) Not before he inserted it up his own bottom for giggles
8) Handled by several other collectors who owned it
9) One of which had a dog which got at it
10) Handled by the AFA chimp when they opened said Toni
11) And then slapped a loose U90 grade on it.

:)

Jason

So basicly your saying, sticking vintage star wars figures up your bum won't harm them or take the paint off :lol:
 

Per-Anders

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Hi!

This is my first post here, but I hope someone would be able to help me clarify this...

I have been offered this awesome Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear) MOC. Seller says it's not a TT item even though I have presented him the below text.

"Toni used the wrong bubble for Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear). The genuine example on the left uses a Tri-Logo style bubble with rounded corners with square corners on the back plate. You can see the square corners left in the imprint in the used cardback in the middle. The Toni on the right uses a rectangular bubble with square corners and rounded corners on the back plate."

Source: http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

He says that it is possible to see the factory pressing from the machine mounting the bubble and that some well-known collectors has verified it as genuine...

Any comments to this? :roll:

Thanks!

Best Regards, Per-Anders.
 

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spoons

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Think you need Jason for that Luke. Based on his write up I'd say it was a Toni but don't take that as gospel.

Toni's have really not lost their value. This one is undisclosed but a clear Toni and going for far too much cash.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112503375520
 

ScruffyLookingNH

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spoons said:
Think you need Jason for that Luke. Based on his write up I'd say it was a Toni but don't take that as gospel.

Toni's have really not lost their value. This one is undisclosed but a clear Toni and going for far too much cash.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112503375520

Can't help but feel that's the undisclosed element causing that, though. No one in their right mind would hand over that amount for that. Some nice TT German cards ended today, Chewie, Stormtrooper, etc. and they were declared and achieved on average less than half of that. They were all graded 85 or better and had they not been and sold for £80 each I'd have been all over them :D
 

ScruffyLookingNH

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spoons said:
How can anyone paying £300 for a MOC not be aware of Toni. Sad times

So true. It shows the lack of engagement by a lot of the new collectors. I don't know if there are any SWFUK equivalents in Germany or what the FB scene is like there but this is just a lack of knowledge and a lack of knowing their subject. I wonder how well known the whole TT thing is in Germany, anyway? I think we end up with much more awareness here because this is where it broke, TT is over here and pedled them over here and because Jason is active here. You only need to see the level of ignorance on some FB groups calling everything from Kenner to Tsukuda's TTs to know that most bother don't educating themselves when it's already been mostly done for them.
 

Plastikheld

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ScruffyLookingNH said:
It shows the lack of engagement by a lot of the new collectors. I don't know if there are any SWFUK equivalents in Germany or what the FB scene is like there but this is just a lack of knowledge and a lack of knowing their subject. I wonder how well known the whole TT thing is in Germany, anyway?

As far as I'm located in Germany I would like to write down my point of view.
Please excuse my spelling and formulations, but I will do my best to explain and I hope anybody will understand what I mean.

Yes, we do have an equivalent for SWFUK in Germany called "lichtgeschwindigkeit.de" (whicht means "lightspeed"). For a long time it was a good running forum, with many experienced collectors. But after some personal disputes and the upcoming of facebook, many of the experienced collectors have left the forum (and joined the FB groups)and there is no longer a collecting community comparable to what you have with SWFUK. That's the reason why I also joined this wonderful forum, but my home is still LG, where I'm a long time member and well known collector (I think/hope) :wink: .

The TT topic seems to be a kind of taboo, cause also over here many collectors have spent (and lost) a lot of money in buying TTs over the years. Especially the german cards, of course. So when the Toy Tony scandal popped up, we had some guys, like Wolff (wbobafett), who tried to help getting the mystery solved.

Some collectors wanted to get rid a fast as possible of their TT MOCs, but most of them kept them in silence. Sadly the german community is full of greed and "dick-comparison-contests" (don't know, if this term is used in english - means to prove that one collection is better than the other).

As a result of this, the experienced collectors educated theirself - but did not spread the word and kept their knowledge shut. So nowadays I often see the newbies or those whose english skills are not that far to join the international community are simply don't know what the TT scandal really was about or where to educate theirself (don't kow how often I referred to Jasons page, but I think it did not helped a lot).

Sadly the newer colltectors are often willing to invest large amounts to see their collections growing as fast as possible - just to show "mine is bigger". Those guys buy everything - fakes, repro-stuff and so on - cause they simply don't know what's the real deal.

And all this mirrors those auctions. The seller might know about this card being a TT, but don't mention it. The experienced collectors are out - so the price don't get as high as if this were genuine MOCs - but some newbies see their chance to get their hand on a rare item - and hey, it's graded - so it must be OK. :(
 

Richard_H

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Many thanks for that excellent explanation. That I believe is also true of forums in other countries too hence why some newer collectors do not believe the TT scandal to exist at all. :shock:
 

stormcab

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spoons said:
How can anyone paying £300 for a MOC not be aware of Toni. Sad times

Isn't it because it's getting to the point now that if you took a figure off a TT, that the brand new figure, weapon, and pristine cardback will be close to that value?
 

ScruffyLookingNH

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Really interesting summary, Plastikheld, thanks for taking the time to post it.

It highlights a couple of really quite interesting points in respect of TT and the spread of knowledge, understanding and acceptance of the facts. It sounds like some collectors are still stuck in the "denial" stage of grief! I saw my first TT disbeliever on a FB thread about 6 months ago. Clearly as ignorant as a hoard of Daily Mail journalists and not willing to accept the fact this happened. I don't think he was trolling, just stupid.

It would be really interesting to try and re-establish the old skool web-ring of forums. Maybe a sticky on each of the member-forums with a thread of banners and a short bio of each of the forums. The list would probably be depressingly short nowadays.
 

spoons

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stormcab said:
spoons said:
How can anyone paying £300 for a MOC not be aware of Toni. Sad times

Isn't it because it's getting to the point now that if you took a figure off a TT, that the brand new figure, weapon, and pristine cardback will be close to that value?

Not a Han Hoth. £20 tops for the figure, and can't see anyone paying £250 for a relatively common GM card back.

The last Meccano Han Hoth cardback sold for about £300 and they are rare.

Agree plastikhelds take on the German situation is interesting and saddening. There are so many chancers in this hobby it's depressing.

I suspect we'll see the cycle starting again where we are now the equivalent of the 90s collectors that knew all about Toni, and where that knowledge gets forgotten over time. In 10 years time I hope we are all still collecting to keep the message out there.
 

mr_palitoy

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Hi there, that's my Palitoy guide you are quoting.

The back pressing on the back of the card round the bubble area isn't a great tell on its own. Some Toni's have a bit of pressing, some factory seals don't.

The key here is that the genuine factory bubble is tri-logo style and the one used here is the rectangular bubble that Toni used.

So in summary, it's a Toni.

Cheers Jason

Per-Anders said:
Hi!

This is my first post here, but I hope someone would be able to help me clarify this...

I have been offered this awesome Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear) MOC. Seller says it's not a TT item even though I have presented him the below text.

"Toni used the wrong bubble for Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear). The genuine example on the left uses a Tri-Logo style bubble with rounded corners with square corners on the back plate. You can see the square corners left in the imprint in the used cardback in the middle. The Toni on the right uses a rectangular bubble with square corners and rounded corners on the back plate."

Source: http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

He says that it is possible to see the factory pressing from the machine mounting the bubble and that some well-known collectors has verified it as genuine...

Any comments to this? :roll:

Thanks!

Best Regards, Per-Anders.
 

mr_palitoy

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Plastikheld said:
ScruffyLookingNH said:
It shows the lack of engagement by a lot of the new collectors. I don't know if there are any SWFUK equivalents in Germany or what the FB scene is like there but this is just a lack of knowledge and a lack of knowing their subject. I wonder how well known the whole TT thing is in Germany, anyway?

As far as I'm located in Germany I would like to write down my point of view.
Please excuse my spelling and formulations, but I will do my best to explain and I hope anybody will understand what I mean.

Yes, we do have an equivalent for SWFUK in Germany called "lichtgeschwindigkeit.de" (whicht means "lightspeed"). For a long time it was a good running forum, with many experienced collectors. But after some personal disputes and the upcoming of facebook, many of the experienced collectors have left the forum (and joined the FB groups)and there is no longer a collecting community comparable to what you have with SWFUK. That's the reason why I also joined this wonderful forum, but my home is still LG, where I'm a long time member and well known collector (I think/hope) :wink: .

The TT topic seems to be a kind of taboo, cause also over here many collectors have spent (and lost) a lot of money in buying TTs over the years. Especially the german cards, of course. So when the Toy Tony scandal popped up, we had some guys, like Wolff (wbobafett), who tried to help getting the mystery solved.

Some collectors wanted to get rid a fast as possible of their TT MOCs, but most of them kept them in silence. Sadly the german community is full of greed and "dick-comparison-contests" (don't know, if this term is used in english - means to prove that one collection is better than the other).

As a result of this, the experienced collectors educated theirself - but did not spread the word and kept their knowledge shut. So nowadays I often see the newbies or those whose english skills are not that far to join the international community are simply don't know what the TT scandal really was about or where to educate theirself (don't kow how often I referred to Jasons page, but I think it did not helped a lot).

Sadly the newer colltectors are often willing to invest large amounts to see their collections growing as fast as possible - just to show "mine is bigger". Those guys buy everything - fakes, repro-stuff and so on - cause they simply don't know what's the real deal.

And all this mirrors those auctions. The seller might know about this card being a TT, but don't mention it. The experienced collectors are out - so the price don't get as high as if this were genuine MOCs - but some newbies see their chance to get their hand on a rare item - and hey, it's graded - so it must be OK. :(

Ive added pages to my Palitoy guide for the German card types in the last year or so. So hopefully that will help German collectors looking for information.

I've tried several times to get Wolfgang to update his German ESB figures guide, alas with no success.

Cheers Jason
 

Plastikheld

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mr_palitoy said:
Ive added pages to my Palitoy guide for the German card types in the last year or so. So hopefully that will help German collectors looking for information.
Yeah, that's my no. 1 source of information and I'm very thankful for your work and time you spent on updating your important guide.
Think I can speak/write here for many other german collectors.
 
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