Palitoy Chewbacca with Trilogo Bubble

_Lee_ · Oct 24, 2014

Exactly Joe, this is why a lot of facts in this TT fiasco and getting mixed up. I can understand panic, but it seems that everything Palitoy ROTJ is considered suspect without any real proof and that to me is causing huge issues. My thread a while back about Palitoy after factory seals was called scaremongering (which is how it comes across to some-and i understand why) but a lot of incorrect information being banded about is just the same with regards to the situation at hand.

The way we are going is that one person is giving the yay or nay which is flawed as we have seen. Many people are using this persons opinion in a similar way people use AFA and we have seen the flaws there. Id hate to see what would happen if said person said it was a Toni when in fact it wasnt-especially if owner had sold it on a loss with TT disclosure.

Its a very slippery slope, trust me.

theforceuk · Oct 24, 2014

I'm sure this Chewie with the long bubble is out there as a genuine example. Ok this link is still pre TT scandle, but I agree with last two post's.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=return+of+the+jedi+palitoy+chewbacca&client=firefox-a&hs=siU&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB

fficial&channel=sb&tbm=isch&imgil=JosI1jPSSWtV5M%253A%253Bf7a9VmufbzbHSM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.vectis.co.uk%25252FPage%25252FViewAuctionLots.aspx%25253FAuctionId%2525253D50%25252526DayNo%2525253D1%25252526Section%2525253D0%25252526Start%2525253D40&source=iu&pf=m&fir=JosI1jPSSWtV5M%253A%252Cf7a9VmufbzbHSM%252C_&usg=__PFCXMtQ1MHqJWJKtGUePJtvFrPM%3D&biw=1366&bih=657&ved=0CC4Qyjc&ei=h9VKVKKVEoeR7AaJhYCQBQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=JosI1jPSSWtV5M%253A%3Bf7a9VmufbzbHSM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.vectis.co.uk%252FAuctionImages%252F50%252F44_l.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.vectis.co.uk%252FPage%252FViewAuctionLots.aspx%253FAuctionId%253D50%2526DayNo%253D1%2526Section%253D0%2526Start%253D40%3B800%3B450

mr_palitoy · Oct 25, 2014

My guide has this bubble down as both genuine and one that Toni had, so no misinformation here.

Toni is known to have scored out offer dates on the backs of the cards or the cards already had them scored out.

Card wear suggests this isn't a Toni.

Having the bubble sealed at the bottom and a lack of pressing/indent on the back of the card suggess a non factory seal, which are missing in this case.

The only thing I said in this case was that it was a bubble that Toni is known to have used.

Cheers Jason

tundra9 · Oct 25, 2014

I've seen plenty palitoy cards with blacked out info on the back, but always thought they did that if they were sold outside of the uk..? i.e not a valid offer where purchased..

Joe · Oct 25, 2014

tundra9 said:
I've seen plenty palitoy cards with blacked out info on the back, but always thought they did that if they were sold outside of the uk..? i.e not a valid offer where purchased..

The theory is that the dates were blacked out using marker because the offer was extended (although some think it could even have been because the offer ended too). No official word on that though but it's the most likely reason.

mr_palitoy said:
My guide has this bubble down as both genuine and one that Toni had, so no misinformation here.

Toni is known to have scored out offer dates on the backs of the cards or the cards already had them scored out.

Card wear suggests this isn't a Toni.

Having the bubble sealed at the bottom and a lack of pressing/indent on the back of the card suggess a non factory seal, which are missing in this case.

The only thing I said in this case was that it was a bubble that Toni is known to have used.

Cheers Jason

Jason, it looked like you had spoken to Iain in private about the Chewbacca and confirmed it:

itfciain said:
After a quick chat with Jason - looks like this might be a fecking TT after all - bloody things get everywhere

If that's not the case then sorry, the replies from everyone else also made it look like Iain was ok to throw this figure in the bin as it was 100% a Toni.

I understand Lee's concerns with this kind of thing because anyone else checking this thread out in the future would have come to the same conclusion if he hadn't provided a picture of that shop sold example, there was no follow up explaining that it might be real because of x y and z.

The sad part about all of this is that while there is a lot of evidence to prove that Toni was up to something the reality is that without a confession from the man himself, we may never know the full story.

You've done a lot of good work so far Jason and nobody is knocking that (because many of us that were following this from day one are still none the wiser about the whole thing) but I think a lot of people now feel you are the only one that can give the yes or no on a Toni just from a picture and if you get it wrong it soon puts you in an awkward position

Hopefully more facts come to light at some point which can help sort this mess out!

Mr-shifter · Oct 25, 2014

Just a quick point on the blacked out dates. This was looked at previously at the time and was discussed at farthest from when it was all breaking. I had 2 tt Mocs that came directly from his stall at snoopers paradise. One was a hoth stormie, one a c3po with rem limbs. Both were brought in the last 12 months and both were all wrong. Mint cards, perfect bubbles and as tt as you can get.

One had a blacked out offer. The other did not.

I don't have these anymore, but will have a look to see what photos I took at the time.

As for chewie? I have no idea.

_Lee_ · Oct 25, 2014

We do know that Toni had some legot stock and the chewies could well be from those.

I have seen many,many cards with the blanked out offer details. The timeline suggests that Palitoy informed any vendors with remaining moc stock to scrub it for one of two reasons, the most likely being the offer being extended-the other being the end of the offer after the expired date. The DSC pictured has the same thing blacked out and is definately another shop bought example.

Lee

Mr-shifter · Oct 25, 2014

I think the blacked out offer is a red herring. There is hard evidence of toy Toni selling tt Mocs with the offer showing and the offer blacked out, as well as hard evidence of shop brought examples having both.

There is no real pattern to either that has been found to date. At the moment I'm not certain looking at this detail will give you any clues.

Joe · Oct 25, 2014

The blacked out date may well prove to be a red herring if Toni received cards that were already blacked out.

It's assumed that the ink was done by shop staff after receiving the figures (proving they were shop sold) but it's just as likely it was done in the factory (in fact more likely) so Mr Shifter could be right on that one.

Out of interest how many ROTJ confirmed Toni's had the date blacked out? Or has that not been checked?

mr_palitoy · Oct 25, 2014

Joe said:
tundra9 said:

I've seen plenty palitoy cards with blacked out info on the back, but always thought they did that if they were sold outside of the uk..? i.e not a valid offer where purchased..

Click to expand...

The theory is that the dates were blacked out using marker because the offer was extended (although some think it could even have been because the offer ended too). No official word on that though but it's the most likely reason.

mr_palitoy said:

My guide has this bubble down as both genuine and one that Toni had, so no misinformation here.

Toni is known to have scored out offer dates on the backs of the cards or the cards already had them scored out.

Card wear suggests this isn't a Toni.

Having the bubble sealed at the bottom and a lack of pressing/indent on the back of the card suggess a non factory seal, which are missing in this case.

The only thing I said in this case was that it was a bubble that Toni is known to have used.

Cheers Jason

Click to expand...

Jason, it looked like you had spoken to Iain in private about the Chewbacca and confirmed it:

itfciain said:

After a quick chat with Jason - looks like this might be a fecking TT after all - bloody things get everywhere

Click to expand...

If that's not the case then sorry, the replies from everyone else also made it look like Iain was ok to throw this figure in the bin as it was 100% a Toni.

I understand Lee's concerns with this kind of thing because anyone else checking this thread out in the future would have come to the same conclusion if he hadn't provided a picture of that shop sold example, there was no follow up explaining that it might be real because of x y and z.

The sad part about all of this is that while there is a lot of evidence to prove that Toni was up to something the reality is that without a confession from the man himself, we may never know the full story.

You've done a lot of good work so far Jason and nobody is knocking that (because many of us that were following this from day one are still none the wiser about the whole thing) but I think a lot of people now feel you are the only one that can give the yes or no on a Toni just from a picture and if you get it wrong it soon puts you in an awkward position

Hopefully more facts come to light at some point which can help sort this mess out!

Hi joe, I never confirmed whether it was a Toni or not to Ian in pm.

This was the reply I sent Ian:-

The edge wear is a good sign its not a toni.

Tonis came with and without that special offer on the back scored out, so no clues there.

Are there any gaps in the seal at the bottom of the bubble on the front of the card? That's a sign of a genuine seal.

Lastly, any pressing/indent round the bubble on the back of the card? Also sign of a genuine factory seal.

cheers Jason

_________________
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martinday1988 · Oct 26, 2014

can i just say one thing about this
forgive me if i am wrong but since i also picked up a palitoy jedi chewbacca i had to do a lot of research

i however had the 45 back with the same bubble, which apparently was not used by toni, even though every other collector jumped down my throat about it

mine is sealed all the way around the bubble, now i know kenner cards are not sealed at the bottom, but it looks like palitoy are, even genuine ones

so am i wrong about that? i searched for palitoy chewbacca cardbacks on the web and came across a handfull that had been opened and clearly had glue wear all around where the bubble had been sealed fully, some of these 45 cardbacks where very worn and some had sticker marks, so these cant have been toy tonis right?

mr_palitoy · Oct 26, 2014

Joe said:
tundra9 said:

I've seen plenty palitoy cards with blacked out info on the back, but always thought they did that if they were sold outside of the uk..? i.e not a valid offer where purchased..

Click to expand...

The theory is that the dates were blacked out using marker because the offer was extended (although some think it could even have been because the offer ended too). No official word on that though but it's the most likely reason.

mr_palitoy said:

My guide has this bubble down as both genuine and one that Toni had, so no misinformation here.

Toni is known to have scored out offer dates on the backs of the cards or the cards already had them scored out.

Card wear suggests this isn't a Toni.

Having the bubble sealed at the bottom and a lack of pressing/indent on the back of the card suggess a non factory seal, which are missing in this case.

The only thing I said in this case was that it was a bubble that Toni is known to have used.

Cheers Jason

Click to expand...

Jason, it looked like you had spoken to Iain in private about the Chewbacca and confirmed it:

itfciain said:

After a quick chat with Jason - looks like this might be a fecking TT after all - bloody things get everywhere

Click to expand...

If that's not the case then sorry, the replies from everyone else also made it look like Iain was ok to throw this figure in the bin as it was 100% a Toni.

I understand Lee's concerns with this kind of thing because anyone else checking this thread out in the future would have come to the same conclusion if he hadn't provided a picture of that shop sold example, there was no follow up explaining that it might be real because of x y and z.

The sad part about all of this is that while there is a lot of evidence to prove that Toni was up to something the reality is that without a confession from the man himself, we may never know the full story.

You've done a lot of good work so far Jason and nobody is knocking that (because many of us that were following this from day one are still none the wiser about the whole thing) but I think a lot of people now feel you are the only one that can give the yes or no on a Toni just from a picture and if you get it wrong it soon puts you in an awkward position

Hopefully more facts come to light at some point which can help sort this mess out!

Hi Joe, still waiting for comment on this. I feel that Lee and yourself, have very unfairly pulled me up for misdiagnosing
a card as a Toni that I gave no diagnosis on at all. My reply that I sent to Ian has been posted for a day now. Nowhere in
that reply did I say it was a Toni. I asked some more questions and suggested the card wear was a sign that it could
be genuine.

The guide I put together is intended so anyone should be able to look at the comparison photos between Tonis and
genuine cards and make reasonable conclusions themselves. I have looked at a lot of cards now though, so may
be better at doing this now than most. I'm happy to help if I can.

I don't like making firm yes/no judgements where there is no clear clincher either way. For Chewbacca 65d, Toni
used the same long narrow bubble shown here that was also used on genuine shop sold cards. For these cards,
and a few other palitoys and all the double stemmed german and clipper cards that Toni had, he used the correct
bubble. That makes diagnosis much harder.

There are always going to be cards at the boundaries that are going to be able to be argued either way. In this case,
I felt there was too much card wear for the card to have been a mint card to start with. Ian felt differently, and thought
that could have occurred from repeated insertion and removal from an acrylic case. He has the card in hand, I only have
photos, and he is an experienced collector who has seen his fair share of Tonis too, so I accepted his judgement
on this point.

Jason

itfciain · Oct 26, 2014

Hi guys

I just want to confirm here that Jason didn't state that this was a TT - in his message he did give me some pointers and from these I interpreted that it was a TT - since then it has been suggested that it might not be

I'll be honest - the whole thing hurts my head somewhat - really no-one - except Toni himself, knows exactly what is a TT and what isn't

Joe · Oct 26, 2014

Jason, I did actually apologise in advance in my earlier post in case my assumption had been incorrect (that apology still stands):

Joe said:
Jason, it looked like you had spoken to Iain in private about the Chewbacca and confirmed it:

itfciain said:

After a quick chat with Jason - looks like this might be a fecking TT after all - bloody things get everywhere

Click to expand...

If that's not the case then sorry, the replies from everyone else also made it look like Iain was ok to throw this figure in the bin as it was 100% a Toni.

I understand Lee's concerns with this kind of thing because anyone else checking this thread out in the future would have come to the same conclusion if he hadn't provided a picture of that shop sold example, there was no follow up explaining that it might be real because of x y and z.

Regarding the follow up (which I think is extremely important): After Iain posted to say that it might well be a Toni, FOUR different members posted (who obviously believed it was a fake) to say they were sorry for Iain. You then posted directly underneath them but instead of correcting them you just posted to laugh at your auto correct typo..

If your stance is that you never implied it was a Toni then you really need to be saying "Hold on guys I only said the bubble was known to be used by Toni - don't jump the gun".

Iain then posted again to say it was his own fault for not being careful and FOUR MORE people posted to say sorry to him! That's EIGHT different members of this forum that got the wrong end of the stick and concluded it was a fake (well, nine if Iain was confused too). So even if you didn't say it actually was a Toni here or in private they clearly thought that was the case.

If Lee hadn't then posted the cardback and this figure discussed a bit more I'd imagine those people would still believe that the figure was a Toni and for obvious reasons that's not what we want as a community.

The main goal here is to help members understand which figures are fake and which figures are legit and if they have it all wrong then they need to be corrected.

On to this:

Joe said:
You've done a lot of good work so far Jason and nobody is knocking that (because many of us that were following this from day one are still none the wiser about the whole thing) but I think a lot of people now feel you are the only one that can give the yes or no on a Toni just from a picture and if you get it wrong it soon puts you in an awkward position

If you have read that as an attack then I apologise again.Without a doubt you are the go to guy on these Jason, you know that! Everyone (myself included) appreciates the work you have put in and people respect your opinion so if you see people coming to the wrong conclusions you've really got to step in there and clear things up, I was wrong to assume you had implied it was a Toni but again that was exactly how it looked to me and you could have prevented that by publicly posting the same stuff you said to Iain in private.

I don't want you to end up with egg on your face that's all, either because you've not diagnosed a Toni properly (everyone makes mistakes after all and it's perfectly plausible that you could get one wrong at some point) or because people have misinterpreted your posts.

Joe

(PS: I'm not in cahoots with Lee and definitely not trying to upset you. I haven't actually spoken to Lee about this but after reading the thread I did mention to Iain that I wasn't 100% sure it was a Toni and he should perhaps hang on to it for a while. I had seen shop sold examples but had no pictures to prove it - Lee then posted his cardback and that was the proof I was missing ..and here we are)

mr_palitoy · Oct 27, 2014

Joe said:
Jason, I did actually apologise in advance in my earlier post in case my assumption had been incorrect (that apology still stands):

Joe said:

Jason, it looked like you had spoken to Iain in private about the Chewbacca and confirmed it:

itfciain said:

After a quick chat with Jason - looks like this might be a fecking TT after all - bloody things get everywhere

Click to expand...

If that's not the case then sorry, the replies from everyone else also made it look like Iain was ok to throw this figure in the bin as it was 100% a Toni.

I understand Lee's concerns with this kind of thing because anyone else checking this thread out in the future would have come to the same conclusion if he hadn't provided a picture of that shop sold example, there was no follow up explaining that it might be real because of x y and z.

Click to expand...

Regarding the follow up (which I think is extremely important): After Iain posted to say that it might well be a Toni, FOUR different members posted (who obviously believed it was a fake) to say they were sorry for Iain. You then posted directly underneath them but instead of correcting them you just posted to laugh at your auto correct typo..

If your stance is that you never implied it was a Toni then you really need to be saying "Hold on guys I only said the bubble was known to be used by Toni - don't jump the gun".

Iain then posted again to say it was his own fault for not being careful and FOUR MORE people posted to say sorry to him! That's EIGHT different members of this forum that got the wrong end of the stick and concluded it was a fake (well, nine if Iain was confused too). So even if you didn't say it actually was a Toni here or in private they clearly thought that was the case.

If Lee hadn't then posted the cardback and this figure discussed a bit more I'd imagine those people would still believe that the figure was a Toni and for obvious reasons that's not what we want as a community.

The main goal here is to help members understand which figures are fake and which figures are legit and if they have it all wrong then they need to be corrected.

On to this:

Joe said:

You've done a lot of good work so far Jason and nobody is knocking that (because many of us that were following this from day one are still none the wiser about the whole thing) but I think a lot of people now feel you are the only one that can give the yes or no on a Toni just from a picture and if you get it wrong it soon puts you in an awkward position

Click to expand...

If you have read that as an attack then I apologise again.Without a doubt you are the go to guy on these Jason, you know that! Everyone (myself included) appreciates the work you have put in and people respect your opinion so if you see people coming to the wrong conclusions you've really got to step in there and clear things up, I was wrong to assume you had implied it was a Toni but again that was exactly how it looked to me and you could have prevented that by publicly posting the same stuff you said to Iain in private.

I don't want you to end up with egg on your face that's all, either because you've not diagnosed a Toni properly (everyone makes mistakes after all and it's perfectly plausible that you could get one wrong at some point) or because people have misinterpreted your posts.

Joe

(PS: I'm not in cahoots with Lee and definitely not trying to upset you. I haven't actually spoken to Lee about this but after reading the thread I did mention to Iain that I wasn't 100% sure it was a Toni and he should perhaps hang on to it for a while. I had seen shop sold examples but had no pictures to prove it - Lee then posted his cardback and that was the proof I was missing ..and here we are)

Didn't really feel it was in my place to correct Ian's conclusion, given the card wear had been dismissed by him at that point.

Obviously, Lee has is in for me, and is waiting to discredit me at any opportunity.

It's just not what you want to be reading when you are having a few days away from being online all the time at MCM Expo for the weekend.

Cheers Jason

Joe · Oct 27, 2014

Fair enough Jason, like I said my posts were not an attempt to upset you and if you are happy to accept my apology then hopefully that's the end of it. I still think it's important for you to correct people if you see them making the wrong assumptions about potential Toni's though, I'm sure others agree. I highly doubt anyone will be annoyed at you for posting factual information, even if you think it's not your place to do so.

As for Lee, I know you guys have had your differences but I'm not sure Lee's always out to discredit you whenever possible. I don't want to speak on his behalf too much but he did help out in proving Toni was resealing figures don't forget (he was the person that informed me of the second ebay account) and if he didn't care about the Palitoy market and the community he wouldn't bother posting anything about Toni.

Hopefully you guys can resolve your differences one day, it's very likely it's just a personality conflict because you both obviously care about the hobby in similar ways.

Grant_C · Oct 27, 2014

Is this a legit trilogo bubble- I don't recognise it from any Star Wars figure.

itfciain · Oct 28, 2014

Pretty sure it is not a Trilogo bubble - it is a 'long bubble' - the legitimacy of the card is still in question - there are clearly cards and hardbacks out there that did hit the shelves with these bubbles - in the case of this one the seal is questionable and the wear could have been caused but sliding into a case. I am going to keep hold of it and see what else comes up before writing it off as a TT

Palitoy Chewbacca with Trilogo Bubble

_Lee_

Sith Lord

theforceuk

Grand Master

mr_palitoy

Sith Lord

tundra9

Sith Lord

Joe

Grand Master

Mr-shifter

Sith Lord

_Lee_

Sith Lord

Mr-shifter

Sith Lord

Joe

Grand Master

mr_palitoy

Sith Lord

martinday1988

Youngling

mr_palitoy

Sith Lord

itfciain

Grand Master

Joe

Grand Master

mr_palitoy

Sith Lord

Joe

Grand Master

Grant_C

Grand Master

itfciain

Grand Master

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