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Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Discuss vintage Kenner and Palitoy Star Wars toys from the 1977-1985 era.
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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby ace » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:28 am

Hothrebel wrote:I am pretty new to this forum thing but I remember buying stuff off you (Jason) it was when you used to do the fairs with Mark (Woolard) I also bought a few things mail order from you through off world,I think it was the one in Romford.



hi there whats your real name mate ? maybe i remember you ?

there was the UK star wars fan club in the 1990s i still have all the names of the members back then and there was around 1000 of them that was it we used to promote that club everywhere for years and there was never more members than the 1000 star wars we niche , and it was a very small world back then , i think it was really only OFF WORLD my company that used to import much from the US back then , other traders used to just mostly sell UK toys , Jim used to sell off his upgrades and cast offs and there was a little bit from other traders bring bits in but we did used to turn over alot , Mark Woollard still works with me we own a company that has the rights for world wide official Star Trek conventions apart from North America called Destination Star Trek , we where the first official con to have all 5 captains , opps i am talking Trek sorry guys do not kill me , sorry i love all sic-fi , anyway yes Mark and i do still work together and are still best friends :-) , back then it was so much more of a hunt and the fun from hunting was great , and yes we had shops in Romford 1st Luton 2nd Dublin Ireland 3rd then last Chatham 4 Milton keynes 5 , we kept then going but the internet and ebay killed retail collators stores in the UK the rents here are so much and its hard to make them work , anyway hi :-) jason

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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby Grant_C » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:38 am

Palitoy78 wrote:
Grant,if you would like to pm me to discuss please feel free to.Im not looking for a verbal slanging match,just dont like being pointed at.


No worries Lee, PM sent.

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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby ace » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:49 am

Palitoy78 wrote:
If this is Jason,ive seen your collection in the flesh.Can you remind me where it was on display again??? back in 2000 if i remember correcty (id like Jason/ace to answer that-i know where it was displayed) do have the original advertising poster somewhere.

Also,the Offworld stores you had donea great job in ripping people off.My mother came to you looking for an xmas present for me and either you,or one of those twats who worked for you sold her a sneak preview Mace Windu for about 10 tmes more than it was worth and told her it was limited to 500 worldwide.

There was also an article in a local paper where i live,which stated your store had been caught selling fake props-remember? There were numerous props,not onlySW either

Oh,and BTW im pretty confident that the cards theory is true.I have known of that for a long time,but kept quiet.Ive even heard rumours lately,that many,many Palitoy ROTJ figures were
made as recently as early 2000.So,this can of worms is now well and truly opened.I heard this from 2 reliable sources...

Brown nose sandperson??? WTF???






hi Palitoy78 nice to meet you also :-)


point one

well there was a display of my collection at the luton Museum where i displayed 200 items of my 500.000 it was opened by Gary Kurtz and we have over 65.000 fans go through it , i originally looked out 500 items not knowing how much space that really takes up so had to take most of it home :-) so i hope that helps proves that i am who i say i am , the links to my Facebook should also go toward that proof also :-).

pont 2

my store was run by a manager like all my stores as i never worked in any of them , i was just busy looking after the company and left the day to day running with collectors that was into one of the subjects we retailed , in the case of Luton it would have been Jammie and his thing was transformers in a big way and that show had an amazing collation of transformers, as to your mothers perches of a sneak preview Mace Windu you clam she was charged 10 times the price ? thats a little odd , 1 do you think we would sell many if they were that over priced ? 2 when we has stock in the shop of new toys we had them in around 2 to 3 months before toys r us had them in so what was on sale was imported figures that came in 2 to 3 months before direct from our contact from Hong Kong called fred , yep he called himself fred :-) anyway these figures were expressed in from Hong Kong air mail and there is a premium cost to these figures we also used to sell these same figures at the NEC memroerbila fare and if you ever went there they you will remember our stand back in around 1999 2000 ish as it was the one with a 3 meatier sign above the stall saying cheapest new figures in the hall , and this pissed of many of the other traders but they could not complain or stop us as what we said on the banner was the truth we was the cheapest figures in the hall and at that time in most places , so you say 10 times more than it was worth , i am sorry that not true , it would have been £9.95 i remember our retail price when it did come out officially i think the retail price was £2.95 but us selling them 3 months before they were supposed to come out in the UK so that was a fair mark up , £2.95 cost of figure , shipping £2 from Hong Kong , import duty 75p alien figure license bought from government ( yes that another story and these dose not exist now days but back then this was for real ) £1.50 so my total cost was £7.20 and i sold this item for £9.95 and i then have to pay 15% Vat on the profit and retail price so it leaves us with around £1.30 a figure which if you want to know now was that was our margin we worked on all our imported new figures around £1.50 . hardly the rip off you clam it was now you know the numbers, i ran my shops for 10 years and they did well and employed 3 people full time in them so we must have had a lot of customers to have kept them going, but sorry you feel that way about this , i know lots of other people that really loved these shops and i loved running them . ho and your point about someone telling you that the figure was limited to 500 , i do not believe that was said , to produce a run of figures you need to produce a limited run of at least 20,000 to make that work that figure was being offered all across the US there was going to be 10,s of 1000s and the manager would know that and lying to a customer will only come back on us and we would lose a costumer so why do it we do not need to we sold 150 of ever new figure t our regulars so we really do not need to lie to your mum or any customer.

pont 3

the story you refer to was about autographs not props , there may have been a slur about having props int he shop but it was about the autographs, the local news paper did not believe that what we had in the shop was real so they sent in a undercover reporter to go into the show and talk for over an hour to the manager and quizzed him about if that was a real Darth Mall autograph , they then wrote up a hatchet job playing us that the certificates where sighed off by the manager of the show ? i do not know who else they thought they were going to be signed off by ?, at the end of the day the autographs came from the events we ran and the guest we had at them , the news paper did not need much proof as they wrote it in such a way that it all but called the autographs fake , so there was no come back on them , at the end of the day we do not sell fakes , never have never will , all autographs are real and as such we put letters inauthenticity with then so anyone buying them thew the show had a paper chain, i was one of the board of director AFTEL when it started up , this group was created to inshore the authenticity and to protect collators , i was at the time a member of the UACC another group to protect collators i run Autographica the worlds biggest autograph show in the world and is respected all around the world by collectors and guest alike , these are the facts and again i have nothing to hid in any way on this matter.

point 4

most people that have been collating carded figures from the late 80s and 90s will have herd something i think ? i am the only person that had numbers and knew first hand what was sold etc, but many new this was the case.

As to your story of ROTJ Palitoy figures being made in around 2000 i find that very hard to believe and i will tell you why , 1 you would have to have lots of mint figures available to you to put into the packing, 2 then you would need to make the packaging and thats when you hit a wall my friend , thank god but we all evolve and as such we went from photographic to digital in the 90s and the process of printing change and as such if you look at anything under a microscope you will see the printing is not the same as it used to be in the 70s 80s or even early 90s so i think your story is just that a stories, i donut there is much truth in these remaking of carded figures in 2000 , if there was a big hall of mint figures in 2000 i think my company would have herd of it at that time as we was all over this stuff back then and we did not here anything like this.

you say you herd this from two 2 reliable sources... why not tell the names ? you call me out about the issue you had with my company and i have been fine responding to that it cool, so why not name names ? i think if you have names and more info on this you should just air it and get it out there an it can be cleared up,.


point 5
"Brown nose sandperson??? WTF???" yep amazing isn't it :-) now there is something to look for ;-)


so it was good to air some points with you Palitoy78 i am sorry my shop did not please you back then , now that ebay has taken over the world i am shore you are much happier with the way you can by all your new figures and the prices you can get them for now days, but back then it was very different.

one last point i am glad you like the shows i run and if you really do not want to put any money in to my pockets then you should come to Colltormaina Milton Keynes as that show is completely free entry to the fans and i will not benefit in any way what so ever from you attending so enjoy.


jason

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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby ace » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:06 am

guys its good to chat , i have just closed a big guest for one of my events which needs my attention so if i disappear for a bit its not because i have run away :-) its just i am busy and the replies on here do take me some time and they are detailed and i have to go back some time and remember it all so i will respond to every post as long as they are polite and try to help clear up any points that are asked ok :-)

thank and its been good to meet a few more Star Wars fans out there :-)

jason

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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby Grant_C » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:07 am

.

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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby Caswellbot » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:13 am

Hi guys I would just like to chime in to say that as far as jasons point regarding toytoni putting mocs together from card backs and bubbles, it is something that I have heard. This is a story that was relayed to me quite a few years ago on the collecting circuit. It is a point that was raised to me by a dealer at Sandown but at the time I was unsure whether to believe him or not. For me, Jasons claim does stack up. I will try to put a little more meat on the bones when I am next with the person who told me.

Thanks, chris.

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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby mr_palitoy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:51 am

As this point, I'm going to invite toy toni to give his input on this thread. Watch this space!

My question about the impact of german/palitoy mocs that were assembled from original stock in the 90s rather than 80s and are indistinguishable to AFA still stands. What do you guys think the impact is?

:)

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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby escapist » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:56 am

This is fascinating stuff and as a non-vintage-MOC collector, it is interesting to look at it from an outsider perspective.

If the AFA are grading these, then the question is, what impact would this ever have on values? Clearly the guy has been able to 'fake' something indistinguishable from the real thing using the same source material. In real terms, would it ever be possible to 'prove' this point, and as a result, call into question the integrity of the AFA.

To clarify, I have no feelings against the AFA, but if anyone was able to conclusively demonstrate difference between these 90's reseal/recard (not sure which!) it would certainly mean some grades would effectively be worthless!

And finally, whenever I see the name Toni all I can think of is:

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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby mr_palitoy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:01 am

Have emailed toni:-

============================================

Hi Toni,

Jason Joiner has joined SWFUK in the last few days and is talking about the early collecting days.

One story he mentions is that the stock you are selling includes a lot of MOC that were assembled from original unused cardbacks, bubbles and mint figures in the 90s.

His post is here:-

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11326&start=180

He says this is/was common knowledge at the time.

This comes as news to many collectors (myself included) who have bought from you over the years.

I invite you to join the discussion and give your side of the story.

cheers Jason
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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby Mr-shifter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:22 am

escapist wrote:
If the AFA are grading these, then the question is, what impact would this ever have on values? Clearly the guy has been able to 'fake' something indistinguishable from the real thing using the same source material. In real terms, would it ever be possible to 'prove' this point, and as a result, call into question the integrity of the AFA.

To clarify, I have no feelings against the AFA, but if anyone was able to conclusively demonstrate difference between these 90's reseal/recard (not sure which!) it would certainly mean some grades would effectively be worthless!


I am watching this thread with great interest. I have some toytoni MOC's, and want to buy more. Im not entirely sure how I feel about this and would really appreciate Toni to come on and give his side of the story.

One thing that it would mean, is that if the AFA can be fooled by a (used) figure sealed to an unused card years after the event, the whole grading system is flawed, including the u-grading system. I know toni has sold u-grades on his website. If these are MOC's from his stock that he has sent in to have u-graded, the most likely scenario since he has large stocks of some figures, and if these MOC's are figures that have been brought as mint loose and resealed to an unused card back then there is no guarantee any u-grade figure is not effectively a re-seal. So the bullshit U on your AFA graded figure actually means fuck all.
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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby _Lee_ » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:36 am

ace wrote:
Palitoy78 wrote:
If this is Jason,ive seen your collection in the flesh.Can you remind me where it was on display again??? back in 2000 if i remember correcty (id like Jason/ace to answer that-i know where it was displayed) do have the original advertising poster somewhere.

Also,the Offworld stores you had donea great job in ripping people off.My mother came to you looking for an xmas present for me and either you,or one of those twats who worked for you sold her a sneak preview Mace Windu for about 10 tmes more than it was worth and told her it was limited to 500 worldwide.

There was also an article in a local paper where i live,which stated your store had been caught selling fake props-remember? There were numerous props,not onlySW either

Oh,and BTW im pretty confident that the cards theory is true.I have known of that for a long time,but kept quiet.Ive even heard rumours lately,that many,many Palitoy ROTJ figures were
made as recently as early 2000.So,this can of worms is now well and truly opened.I heard this from 2 reliable sources...

Brown nose sandperson??? WTF???






hi Palitoy78 nice to meet you also :-)


point one

well there was a display of my collection at the luton Museum where i displayed 200 items of my 500.000 it was opened by Gary Kurtz and we have over 65.000 fans go through it , i originally looked out 500 items not knowing how much space that really takes up so had to take most of it home :-) so i hope that helps proves that i am who i say i am , the links to my Facebook should also go toward that proof also :-).

pont 2

my store was run by a manager like all my stores as i never worked in any of them , i was just busy looking after the company and left the day to day running with collectors that was into one of the subjects we retailed , in the case of Luton it would have been Jammie and his thing was transformers in a big way and that show had an amazing collation of transformers, as to your mothers perches of a sneak preview Mace Windu you clam she was charged 10 times the price ? thats a little odd , 1 do you think we would sell many if they were that over priced ? 2 when we has stock in the shop of new toys we had them in around 2 to 3 months before toys r us had them in so what was on sale was imported figures that came in 2 to 3 months before direct from our contact from Hong Kong called fred , yep he called himself fred :-) anyway these figures were expressed in from Hong Kong air mail and there is a premium cost to these figures we also used to sell these same figures at the NEC memroerbila fare and if you ever went there they you will remember our stand back in around 1999 2000 ish as it was the one with a 3 meatier sign above the stall saying cheapest new figures in the hall , and this pissed of many of the other traders but they could not complain or stop us as what we said on the banner was the truth we was the cheapest figures in the hall and at that time in most places , so you say 10 times more than it was worth , i am sorry that not true , it would have been £9.95 i remember our retail price when it did come out officially i think the retail price was £2.95 but us selling them 3 months before they were supposed to come out in the UK so that was a fair mark up , £2.95 cost of figure , shipping £2 from Hong Kong , import duty 75p alien figure license bought from government ( yes that another story and these dose not exist now days but back then this was for real ) £1.50 so my total cost was £7.20 and i sold this item for £9.95 and i then have to pay 15% Vat on the profit and retail price so it leaves us with around £1.30 a figure which if you want to know now was that was our margin we worked on all our imported new figures around £1.50 . hardly the rip off you clam it was now you know the numbers, i ran my shops for 10 years and they did well and employed 3 people full time in them so we must have had a lot of customers to have kept them going, but sorry you feel that way about this , i know lots of other people that really loved these shops and i loved running them . ho and your point about someone telling you that the figure was limited to 500 , i do not believe that was said , to produce a run of figures you need to produce a limited run of at least 20,000 to make that work that figure was being offered all across the US there was going to be 10,s of 1000s and the manager would know that and lying to a customer will only come back on us and we would lose a costumer so why do it we do not need to we sold 150 of ever new figure t our regulars so we really do not need to lie to your mum or any customer.

pont 3

the story you refer to was about autographs not props , there may have been a slur about having props int he shop but it was about the autographs, the local news paper did not believe that what we had in the shop was real so they sent in a undercover reporter to go into the show and talk for over an hour to the manager and quizzed him about if that was a real Darth Mall autograph , they then wrote up a hatchet job playing us that the certificates where sighed off by the manager of the show ? i do not know who else they thought they were going to be signed off by ?, at the end of the day the autographs came from the events we ran and the guest we had at them , the news paper did not need much proof as they wrote it in such a way that it all but called the autographs fake , so there was no come back on them , at the end of the day we do not sell fakes , never have never will , all autographs are real and as such we put letters inauthenticity with then so anyone buying them thew the show had a paper chain, i was one of the board of director AFTEL when it started up , this group was created to inshore the authenticity and to protect collators , i was at the time a member of the UACC another group to protect collators i run Autographica the worlds biggest autograph show in the world and is respected all around the world by collectors and guest alike , these are the facts and again i have nothing to hid in any way on this matter.

point 4

most people that have been collating carded figures from the late 80s and 90s will have herd something i think ? i am the only person that had numbers and knew first hand what was sold etc, but many new this was the case.

As to your story of ROTJ Palitoy figures being made in around 2000 i find that very hard to believe and i will tell you why , 1 you would have to have lots of mint figures available to you to put into the packing, 2 then you would need to make the packaging and thats when you hit a wall my friend , thank god but we all evolve and as such we went from photographic to digital in the 90s and the process of printing change and as such if you look at anything under a microscope you will see the printing is not the same as it used to be in the 70s 80s or even early 90s so i think your story is just that a stories, i donut there is much truth in these remaking of carded figures in 2000 , if there was a big hall of mint figures in 2000 i think my company would have herd of it at that time as we was all over this stuff back then and we did not here anything like this.

you say you herd this from two 2 reliable sources... why not tell the names ? you call me out about the issue you had with my company and i have been fine responding to that it cool, so why not name names ? i think if you have names and more info on this you should just air it and get it out there an it can be cleared up,.


point 5
"Brown nose sandperson??? WTF???" yep amazing isn't it :-) now there is something to look for ;-)


so it was good to air some points with you Palitoy78 i am sorry my shop did not please you back then , now that ebay has taken over the world i am shore you are much happier with the way you can by all your new figures and the prices you can get them for now days, but back then it was very different.

one last point i am glad you like the shows i run and if you really do not want to put any money in to my pockets then you should come to Colltormaina Milton Keynes as that show is completely free entry to the fans and i will not benefit in any way what so ever from you attending so enjoy.


jason


Jason,

My point about the carded figures were about the ones being made using original cardbacks and bubbles,not complete replicas as you thought i implied.Also,to say you were the only person who had numbers etc,is a bold statement to make.There are/were other big collectors around aswell.

I did see your collection at the Luton museum as i live in Luton.It is a great collection and i take my hat off to you for that.It was great to take my son to see it.

I do go to almost every single one of your CM shows,and realise how much hard work it is.I take my hat off to you for organising such great events.I do put money in your pockets at CM by paying for autographs mate,so think again on that point.

With regards to the Mace Windu,i can assure you that is true.My mother bought me it for christmas and it wasnt till later that i realised when she said how expensive and rare it was for a figure like that.When i said ten times more,i was generalising-IIRC she paid £25 for it.I accept you maybe not being there,but dont make your employees at the time to be angels.I always remember items being way overpriced there,but i understand you running a business.On another note they also sold my sister a 1995 x wing,telling her it was vintage,and if you want i could get her to clarify that.£35 for a loose X WING isnt right is it? and being told it was vintage isnt true Jason.

The next Collectormania MK show,i will happlily meet up with you for a chat Jason.That way i can clear things up with you.As i said,it probably wasnt your fault and i think you have done more positive stuff for the hobby in recent years.

I will definately meet up with you as i said.

Lee
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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby mr_palitoy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:36 am

Mr-shifter wrote:
escapist wrote:
If the AFA are grading these, then the question is, what impact would this ever have on values? Clearly the guy has been able to 'fake' something indistinguishable from the real thing using the same source material. In real terms, would it ever be possible to 'prove' this point, and as a result, call into question the integrity of the AFA.

To clarify, I have no feelings against the AFA, but if anyone was able to conclusively demonstrate difference between these 90's reseal/recard (not sure which!) it would certainly mean some grades would effectively be worthless!


I am watching this thread with great interest. I have some toytoni MOC's, and want to buy more. Im not entirely sure how I feel about this and would really appreciate Toni to come on and give his side of the story.

One thing that it would mean, is that if the AFA can be fooled by a (used) figure sealed to an unused card years after the event, the whole grading system is flawed, including the u-grading system. I know toni has sold u-grades on his website. If these are MOC's from his stock that he has sent in to have u-graded, the most likely scenario since he has large stocks of some figures, and if these MOC's are figures that have been brought as mint loose and resealed to an unused card back then there is no guarantee any u-grade figure is not effectively a re-seal. So the bullshit U on your AFA graded figure actually means fuck all.


The bullshit U on an AFA graded figure means fuck all regardless. Someone touched it when they put it in the bubble and then again when it was taken out.

:)

Jason
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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby Mr-shifter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:45 am

mr_palitoy wrote:
The bullshit U on an AFA graded figure means fuck all regardless. Someone touched it when they put it in the bubble and then again when it was taken out.

:)

Jason


I know, but it means even more fuck all now, because despite being touched when sealed, and then later fingered by some stooge at the AFA it could have also been through the hands of collectors, dealers and maybe even in the personal possession of a kid at some point.

I guess I just want something to happen that means there's no further point in u grading and all of the u graders will end up crying into there worthless collections.
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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby mr_palitoy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:47 am

Some of my thoughts on impact.

If Toni is indeed sitting on a large stockpile of these German/Palitoy reassembled cards, does this mean the market is about to collapse?
Toni has been careful to trickle these into the market over the years so that it doesnt.

Will Toni come clean. and sell them for what they are, or sell the original mint cardbacks? I for one, would love some unused German/Palitoy
cardbacks for my collection.

I'm also worried about the impact on value of my AFA 90 ROTJ Palitoy MOC run. Some of the figures that it affects have already been mentioned:-
boba fett (£500 for an AFA 90), snowtrooper (£100 for an AFA 90). There are also loads of C3PO removable arms and 21bs out there. Are they on the list?
It would be good if a complete list of affected figures was made available by Toni.

Jason Joiner, you also mentioned having a list?

:o

Jason
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Want Palitoy ESB 45A Back (Blue Circle Offer) 2-1B MOC and Palitoy ESB 30B cardbacks for first 12 figures

Mr Palitoy's Cardback Guide
http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy

ace
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Re: Gary Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Postby ace » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:36 am

Palitoy78 wrote:Also,you guys think the guywho apparently has the largest collection in the world doesnt know what U-grading is???seriously???



well i do not , you may not understand that slang in any walk of life is mostly understood by the group that use it , if you ask other people the names of games we played at school many of the same games are called different names , its really weird, i do not hang out on forums so and i do not hang out with many collectors so why would i know the name you call something ?

jason


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