High Prices and Collecting Changes

Firstly, this is purely an observation and definitely not levelled at anybody in particular - genuinely.

We've all seen prices for vintage rise and reach some crazy (in historical terms) heights. It's a separate discussion as to whether this is an unsustainable bubble or the effect of one of the greatest icons of pop culture coinciding with it's generation coming of age financially, but I have noticed that 'collecting' seems to be changing.

Collecting seems to have become transient and almost a temporary store of wealth, like a savings account, rather than a 'collection'. Of course we've all sold things to make way (or pay for) another purchase, but the high prices paid lately seem to have made this even more commonplace, with items changing hands quickly as the owner (who paid a small fortune) appears to have been forced to move the item on in order to buy something else. And it then moves to another temporary custodian, who does the same thing in a few months time - each time perpetuating the high prices, but being unable to afford to keep the item because of them.

Someone on facebook summed this up when talking about a run of unreleased Droids/Ewoks protos. A buyer had paid a small fortune and destroyed a carded sample to achieve the run. Now the owner has 100k (or more) invested, it became too expensive to keep for any length of time, and the run was broken up. This has happened many times in many areas of collecting and is understandable. That proof run, or palitoy set, prototype example or whatever is now worth more than many people's cars - it is understandable that they aren't locked up forever and the money effectively 'spent' as most people simply can't look at an expenditure in that way.

There can't be that many people who can afford to 'spend' multiple thousands on toys. However, many more people do have the ability to raise that money for a temporary period (maybe from debt, taking it from the mortgage, or maybe just not saving) to own something temporarily - even if they aren't admitting it to themselves.

So, are we guilty of perpetuating our own problems here by being sucked into spending more than 'disposable' money on our collections? I think the answer is probably 'yes', although the alternative is to not own anything new and effectively stop collecting! It's a funny old world.

Great post. Very well constructed.

No idea as to the answer though!

For as long as I can remember the "payment plan" has been an option for almost all of the high end items in the Vintage world which proves that many items in this hobby cost far more than most people can actually afford (at least in one hit). I don't think there is anything really wrong with taking on a payment plan (done it myself) especially if you know you can keep up with the payments but it's definitely something that should not be abused (one payment plan at a time for example and only taking one on if the piece means that much to you that you can't let it go).

In terms of how long people end up owning these must have purchases for..well I guess that ultimately comes down to the individual and how much they actually mean to them once they are in hand. TBH though I think compared to 10 years ago (when there were fewer collectors who somehow seemed more "serious" about collecting) there does seem to be far more people getting caught up in the buy to limelight thing who then quickly refocus, sell up or flip the item to fund another purchase soon after obtaining an item (just my observations on how quick some "grails" change hands).

The flipping thing is a huge part of it too, as long as people can find a way to buy stuff for $5k and then sell it for $7-8k 6 months later they'll continue to do so, safe in the knowledge that these credit card purchases or payment plans of today are in fact making them money for tomorrow. This is a huge downside in the transparency and showmanship of some of the FB groups IMO. In the past, people used to keep their spends under their hat but now it's almost like a show of power (alpha male type stuff) if you can "PM sent" on a $10k piece in full view of thousands of people who all then gasp at your financial situation (even if the person sending the PM can't really afford the item either).

The majority of people who have joined the hobby in the last couple of years through FB groups are exposed to how the community treats the "big spenders" and how those big ticket purchases raise their profile in the hobby. Combine the overnight internet fame you get with spending big money with a sound investment and you've got a pretty obvious reason for the mega spenders that are buying things up left right and center these days.

Unless things tank I don't see this trend ending any time soon. At the moment the risk isn't there, if you buy an EP or a 12 back for $4k you can get your money back in 5 minutes flat (or more) so people are more likely to spend money they don't have on high end items because the risk of that "investment" (Hate that word when talking about toys) losing value is low.

I find it funny how the conversations have evolved and changed over the past 10 years. It used to all be toy talk and now we spend more time talking about the market or the money involved than the actual toys themselves :lol:

maxf said:

So, are we guilty of perpetuating our own problems here by being sucked into spending more than 'disposable' money on our collections?

Click to expand...

The short answer to this question is no from me. I've never paid a huge amount for what I have as I'd personally never want to tie up too much money in one piece (and the stress of owning something so valuable would outweigh the enjoyment I'd get out of it).

I've only ever sold a few items over all my years of collecting and other than these items being worth a lot more now feel no loss from moving them on when I did as I'd grown tired of them and had other interests. It's a funny old game for sure but buying something with the thought of just keeping it for a short while has no appeal for me, I collect for myself and to built my collection the way I want to see it every day

Ian

Yes Joe is right - these top end items are attracting prospectors, not collectors. If you can buy something for 2k and sell it for 2.5k a week later, that's a better return than you'll get on pretty much any other investment, and often with zero risk. That's why it has attracted bell ends like Mr Proof Card who think they're geniuses for doing something any of us could do, just choose not to because we have some self respect.

I have rarely been guilty of making a big purchase and then selling on quickly. In fact I have only done it once and I actually sold back to the seller and it was a case of they had had a change of heart so was happy to sell back.
I have paid a fair amount of money for pieces over the years but good prices regarding market value. In the last year or so I paid out the most I have ever done for some MOCs but the money was generated from my collection where I was ending focuses to fund my main Palitoy focus. Plus the pieces sold I had had for many years so needless to say I made a healthy profit which made it less painful :wink:

I think today realistically one has to b prepared to pay well in order to b successful in certain areas of collecting but that doesn't mean one has to go OTT on prices :!:

Don't get me wrong nobody is a saint, I don't think anybody here will claim to have never flipped anything or made a quick profit. But it's the people who use this hobby simply as a way of making money. Even most of the dealers I know are passionate about the hobby and have their own amazing collections, what we don't need is the parasites.

edd_jedi said:

Even most of the dealers I know are passionate about the hobby and have their own amazing collections, what we don't need is the parasites.

Click to expand...

:wink:

Needless to say, you are a contributor, not a leach

edd_jedi said:

Don't get me wrong nobody is a saint, I don't think anybody here will claim to have never flipped anything or made a quick profit. But it's the people who use this hobby simply as a way of making money. Even most of the dealers I know are passionate about the hobby and have their own amazing collections, what we don't need is the parasites.

Click to expand...

What I find strange is the fairly constant movement of some 'grail' pieces - and the reference to 'black hole collections' - at some point somebody will be left holding the baby, whether that is the market moving down, or damage in transit and having to eat the cost. 'Black hole collections' seems to be becoming the name for someone who can afford to keep things they buy!

I think the growth in popularity has seen a growth in show casing, which in itself is no bad thing. I like seeing limelights and I'm quite happy to limelight things in my collection.

I think now though the limelight is often how much an item cost the person rather than the item itself. That buzz runs out pretty quickly (maybe followed by buyers remorse) then the item gets sold on, as others have pointed out.

People always bought things to sell on so that's nothing new, it's just the amount that could potentially be generated by flipping something means we possibly notice it more. Possibly due to the above point of 'look how much I spent' show casing!

People who buy aren't the only ones who continue this mode. People value things at high prices as well, to the point where for many pieces that's the assumed norm. Someone on here asks for a value, whatever value we give contributes to the current state of play. I'm not saying that we shouldn't but it does help continue the status quo. Of course at the end of the day, whatever we value something at makes little difference if no one is prepared to hand over that sum of money and clearly, for whatever reason, people are!

It's like a Ponzi scheme isn't it

You can't label everyone the same though. There are both new collectors and old school big name collectors who aggressively buy and sell items and make money from them. If you look at a load of the recent Palitoy items that have come from Vectis I've seen new and old school collectors buying them/getting them graded and flipping them in pretty short time. It's also happened with clear bubble POTFs, it happens all the time with clear bubble, no offer AFA 85 debuts etc. If you watch the FB groups and ebay it's crystal clear what's happening once you join the names together. With the limelighting and hype before they sell the stuff, people get dragged in and think stuff is worth way more than it really is, and end up paying too much. The constant "need to post to be relevant" on FB hurts my head sometime, but I have to say I think the number of ridiculous mail calls and limelighting last weeks $5ks worth of purchases does seem to be receding a lot, although you still get some.

It's just a shame that like any Ponzi scheme those who come last to the party, or in this case pay the highest price, get burned.

You can't tar everyone who spends a large amount of cash with the same brush though. There are people who simply have more disposable income. They've paid their mortgage, got no kids/kids left home, got an inheritance, got a good job etc. There's always someone with more money, a bigger car or house, a better job.

It's what you do with your own money that matters. You can't change what someone else is willing to do with theirs. You also can't tell someone else what an item is worth. I bet if people added what they'd paid to the LA thread there would be a huge amount of discussion about bargains and overpayments, but it's not always straightforward to determine what price many items are worth, or why someone might pay over the odds to make sure they get it.

sith-smith said:

People value things at high prices as well, to the point where for many pieces that's the assumed norm. Someone on here asks for a value, whatever value we give contributes to the current state of play. I'm not saying that we shouldn't but it does help continue the status quo. Of course at the end of the day, whatever we value something at makes little difference if no one is prepared to hand over that sum of money and clearly, for whatever reason, people are!

Click to expand...

I think valuation threads can definitely play a part in things depending on the valuations that are given. I know if I see someone give a valuation that is far too high (at least in my opinion) then I'll try to correct that or post a lower valuation based on previous sales/how common something is.

Crazy asking prices contribute too, especially when they aren't opposed or discussed. You see many "great price" comments on FB when in reality the price is usually higher than you might find on eBay..but saying so publicly could get you in hot water.

It's hard to politely inform potential buyers that a seller is smoking something with his prices in a hobby where things are moving so quickly that nobody wants to lose out on (Even if they don't truly understand it's rarity or have a grasp on market values).

Sometimes saying nothing is just as bad too, there was an instance recently where someone picked up a figure for a fair price from a contact I had yet didn't say anything when they saw someone else list the same figure in worse condition for almost double in a group that they are part of. If it were me I would have said something like "you might be a bit high, I've just bought one for x amount but good luck".

I don't know, my list of gripes with this hobby is longer than my wants list these days :lol: :roll:

Agree with a lot of this. Just a (yet another) comment on prices from me, I think they are still mental. I just had a browse on ebay and it appears people just pull a number out their arse then double it. I just saw on the first page a boxed Falcon for 550, an "ok condition" boxed Slave 1 for 200, a Biker Scout moc for 175 and various other mocs and boxed stuff for about twice what they're worth. It's got to the point where I generally never see anything I want to buy except the odd thing on here. Cant really comment on expensive items but if someone cant afford to buy them and keep them that's just daft.

Interesting read.

I think it's quite telling that limelights are getting more and more high brow. It's amazing to see all this great stuff, but I notice no one has bought a C7 Loose imperial attack base with missing bunker flaps for a couple 100 pages, but super quality pieces are on every page.

Humm........ There has been some EPIC stuff recently.

I know you toy collectors are going to like this, but I blame Star Wars

Grant_C said:

Interesting read.

I think it's quite telling that limelights are getting more and more high brow. It's amazing to see all this great stuff, but I notice no one has bought a C7 Loose imperial attack base with missing bunker flaps for a couple 100 pages, but super quality pieces are on every page.

Humm........ There has been some EPIC stuff recently.

I know you toy collectors are going to like this, but I blame Star Wars

Click to expand...

It's all about taking pics and impressing people (or thinking you are) on the internet..nothing more...and that is not what collecting is about. If your only reason to purchase is to limelight..then you really need to pull out your own dick and measure it. :lol:

Ok measured mine, do I have to post a picture as well or do you just want the measurements?

Personally I think collecting interests for many collectors evolve and become more niche as time goes on. Unfortunately with the high prices we are experiencing I just can't afford to keep it all and have had to make some big sacrifices along the way in order to now obtain the pieces i want to. My financial situation has changed a lot this last 18 months. I started a business which has struggled to sustain a profit and the only way I could progress my collection in the areas that most interested me was to sell all my production stuff and seriously down size. This has allowed me to still pursue my collecting goals without further stressing my finances.

When I first got into pre production 5 years ago, prices were lower, my financial situation was better and more importantly, what i considered "grails" came up very infrequently. Now were in a time when many big collectors are choosing to cash in and it seems like nearly every week another major collector is selling off and those "grails" are being released for sale on a very regular basis. The types of things that I could afford but never came up, I can no longer afford put are coming up literally every few days. The only way I can acquire those grails or achieve my collecting goals such as finishing runs now is by making sacrifices.

I'm actually pretty sensible when it comes to my finances. I never spend what i don't have, I've never taken a payment plan and I always like to keep a nice healthy cash buffer in case (like this year) it all goes to ****. And lastly when financial situations change I think it's wise to cut back in all of life's expenses and that includes my collection.

Right now, with the way prices are going i don't see myself being able to expand my collection much further. However I'm more than satisfied with what i've got right now so if i'm close to hanging up my buying boots and sitting back and being content with what i have then I'm prepared for it. I hope I hang on to the pieces i love and the runs I've built but if life changes and i need to part with my collection or if I loose interest then so be it. As someone thats moved to the opposite side of the world and back on several occasions I've learnt to not be too attached to material possessions.

As for who is to blame well the list is probably a long one. Sellers taking advantage; buyers with more money than sense; collectors cashing in at the right time; facebook and social media; fickle collectors; hype for TFA. Personally I'm not going to point fingers at specific groups of people because it's so wide spread it feels like almost everyone is playing there own part in the situation in some way and it is the way it is. I have a feeling that a lot of it is unavoidable and it's not worth fighting an uphill battle to change things. Collecting has evolved. Not only the number and type of collectors and the way they collect but how we are interacting more through social media rather than through forums or even face to face. I won't say I'm happy about any of it but a lot of it feels out of my control.

My most recent purchases were an ink stained Tusken and a yellowed 12 inch Stormy with a damaged gun, guess what ...I got the buzz from getting them, they now sit in my collection, and I'm happy as Larry they are vintage SW that will do for me :wink:

As with everything it's horses for courses, spend what you can afford and enjoy the hobby for what it is.

Yeah i'm with mike, I just buy the low budget stuff and enjoy that, its all I can afford, so i'm happy where i'm at