Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Yes don't forget as a toy dealer for many years TT would have had lots of other types of genuine figures and MOCS through his hands.

Just a point that baffles me, that hopefully someone can clear up.

If this J.J. guy has all the info/documentation and has done for a while and is so sickened by this whole situation, then why wait till now????

If he is now saying authorities should be involved etc. why hasn't he done this previously off of his own back having all the incriminating evidence to hand for years.... :? :? :?

I'm just confused as to what is going on here, and why suddenly after all these years this info has suddenly been offered up.

My theory is this:

Could this be two people who have a lot of secrets regarding old stock that have had a falling out and all the collectors and SWFUK guys are stuck in the middle and being used as weight to one side of the argument????

kraftdermacht said:

Bubble too small?!

This one is good?!

Click to expand...

TT bubbles: The 03 one indeed looks good compared to a used card back.

All early TT figures I have look factory sealed, different tooling was used, they do not at all look "homemade".
Even not the 2 ones with bubbles with dimples where 2 more different tools were used.
Hopefully Toni soon comes up with the explanation what really happened.

Wolfgang

Pigcity - this is a big unanswered element in the whole thing for me too.

1) Why now?
2) Why the apparent haste in his posts to nail this on Toni first before investigating the full picture
3) The ironed bubble cards. JJ is the only one who is attributing these to Toni. Others have clearly stated theirs came from either Jim Stevenson or JJ himself.

JJ this is not personal towards you and if all this is true i appreciate anyone who has helped to bring this to the collecting communities attention. However you must understand that we need all loose ends in this affair tied up so that the right person(s) are held responsible and we have the best chance of clearly identifying which moc are in question.

Toni has a lot he needs to answer for clearly. But there is more to this.

Yes Wolfgang it is very important that Toni comes forward with accurate reportings of what he did so that we can safely say these are fine and these are not. He's not likely to come on here and do that however I think our best hope is for some 'calmer' collectors who have a relationship with him to meet up and discuss in a civilised manner.

kraftdermacht said:

kraftdermacht said:

Bubble too small?!

This one is good?!

Click to expand...

TT bubbles: The 03 one indeed looks good compared to a used card back.

All early TT figures I have look factory sealed, different tooling was used, they do not at all look "homemade".
Even not the 2 ones with bubbles with dimples where 2 more different tools were used.
Hopefully Toni soon comes up with the explanation what really happened.

Wolfgang

Click to expand...

Early TT's are likely to be the carded stock that he got from Arthur. He only started carding the uncarded ones when
the carded ones ran out.



Jason

Whatever this brings: As I mentioned the GM cards with English text on the back are printed differently or have different cardboard. Can be clearly seen under blacklight where they are bluish (hard to photograph).

I'm still waiting for pictures of used GM cards or GM cards from stores with English text on the back.
Jason, found any so far?

Wolfgang

The carded figures where the bubbles have dimples in the corners may be carded figures which failed QC. This is the carded
stock that Toni got which we havent seen a list for yet.



Jason

kraftdermacht said:

Whatever this brings: As I mentioned the GM cards with English text on the back are printed differently or have different cardboard. Can be clearly seen under blacklight where they are bluish (hard to photograph).

I'm still waiting for pictures of used GM cards or GM cards from stores with English text on the back.
Jason, found any so far?

Wolfgang

Click to expand...

I saw a link to one on ebay which was bought in the UK. It was worn and had price sticker residue but the price sticker had fallen off.

Michel from hell said there were some example cards with english text on the back which were sold in Germany. I took him at his word.

Jason

mr_palitoy said:

kraftdermacht said:

I'm still waiting for pictures of used GM cards or GM cards from stores with English text on the back.
Jason, found any so far?

Wolfgang

Click to expand...

I saw a link to one on ebay which was bought in the UK. It was worn and had price sticker residue but the price sticker had fallen off.

Michel from hell said there were some example cards with english text on the back which were sold in Germany. I took him at his word.

Jason

Click to expand...

Likely there are some. Quite rare. I asked Michael for pictures.

Wolfgang

mr_palitoy said:

kraftdermacht said:

Whatever this brings: As I mentioned the GM cards with English text on the back are printed differently or have different cardboard. Can be clearly seen under blacklight where they are bluish (hard to photograph).

I'm still waiting for pictures of used GM cards or GM cards from stores with English text on the back.
Jason, found any so far?

Wolfgang

Click to expand...

I saw a link to one on ebay which was bought in the UK. It was worn and had price sticker residue but the price sticker had fallen off.

Michel from hell said there were some example cards with english text on the back which were sold in Germany. I took him at his word.

Jason

Click to expand...

Heres the one on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-General-Mills-ESB-German-card-White-Bespin-Guard-MOC-45-back-/111212878348?pt=UK_Toys_Creative_Educational_RL&hash=item19e4cdda0c&nma=true&si=%252BeQNEbtM7Q0HyCTvODfQTEZU%252B9E%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557





Jason

cheers Jason

mr_palitoy said:

The carded figures where the bubbles have dimples in the corners may be carded figures which failed QC. This is the carded
stock that Toni got which we havent seen a list for yet.



Jason

Click to expand...

Have any of these been found on definitely old cards?
In the moment I still think these are replica bubbles. (Would love that they are not :-| )

Wolfgang

kraftdermacht said:

mr_palitoy said:

The carded figures where the bubbles have dimples in the corners may be carded figures which failed QC. This is the carded
stock that Toni got which we havent seen a list for yet.



Jason

Click to expand...

Have any of these been found on definitely old cards?
In the moment I still think these are replica bubbles. (Would love that they are not :-| )

Wolfgang

Click to expand...

On JJ's list it lists a couple of boxes of bubbles. Some boxes are deemed to be bubbles which are damaged in some way
and not suitable for carding figures. Cards with bubble anomalies like that could be coming from the damaged bubbles
box.

Jason

mr_palitoy said:

On JJ's list it lists a couple of boxes of bubbles. Some boxes are deemed to be bubbles which are damaged in some way
and not suitable for carding figures. Cards with bubble anomalies like that could be coming from the damaged bubbles
box.

Jason

Click to expand...

The marks shown above are from a regular production process and are not damages. QC would be fine for these.

Wolfgang

mr_palitoy said:

Heres the one on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-General-Mills-ESB-German-card-White-Bespin-Guard-MOC-45-back-/111212878348?pt=UK_Toys_Creative_Educational_RL&hash=item19e4cdda0c&nma=true&si=%252BeQNEbtM7Q0HyCTvODfQTEZU%252B9E%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

cheers Jason

Click to expand...

Thanks for looking this up.

Wolfgang

They made missing or newly needed bubbles in the 2000s. Quite clear.
Everybody can check: http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.toytoni.com

TT offering :

I know TT offered no GM Power Droid and GM FX7 in the early 2000s. Special size bubbles needed!

2003
esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 photo

2004 (kraftdermacht: ran out of small bubbles, or carded figures were sold)
esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 out of stock

2007 (kraftdermacht: Cool, suddenly snake variations, same with Ben white/grey)
esb yoda brown snake palitoy c8 £135 photo
esb yoda orange snake palitoy c8 £165 photo

Chewie with pictures blow.

Wolfgang

delete

answered below

Great detective work! I think we've all established that the many different bubble types for the same figure/crdback are a dead giveaway, this would not have happened in a factory.

Here's one of the oldest archives of Toni's stock, from February 2002:

.esb han solo c9+Palitoy german issue £90 photo
.esb cloud car pilot Palitoy german issue c9+ £68 photo
.esb stormtrooper c9+ Palitoy german issue £75 photo
.esb leia organa c9 +Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £100 photo
.esb ben kenobi Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £95 photo
.esb black besp guard Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £65 photo
.esb leia bespin palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £100 photo
.esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 photo
.esb chewbacca Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £75 photo
.esb at at driver Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£60 photo
.esb rebel commander Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£40
.esb rebel soldier Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £40
.esb han bespin Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£75.
.esb bossk Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £55
.esb r2d2 Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£80 photo
.esb leia hoth Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£75
.esb 21b Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £55
.esb white bespin guard c9+ £65 photo
.Star Wars 20 back Meccano (France) jawa c9+ £50 photo
.esb dutch Klipper walrus man c9+ £55photo
.esb dutch klipper rebel commander c9+£55 photo
. esb dutch klipper white bespin guard c9+£55 photo

And January 2003:

esb rare c3po palitoy german issue photo sold .....
esb r5d4 palitoy german issue c9+ call photo
esb han hoth palitoy german issue c9+ factory punched £60 photo
rare rotj cloud car pilot 45 back palitoy german issue £75 photo sold
.esb han solo c9+Palitoy german issue £90 photo
.esb cloud car pilot Palitoy german issue c9+ £68 photo sold
.esb stormtrooper c9+ Palitoy german issue £75 photo
.esb leia organa c9 +Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £100 photo sold
.esb ben kenobi Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £95 photo
.esb black besp guard Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £65 photo
.esb leia bespin palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £100 photo
.esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 photo
.esb chewbacca Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £75 photo sold
.esb at at driver Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£60 photo
.esb rebel commander Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£40
.esb rebel soldier Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £40 photo
.esb han bespin Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£75.
.esb bossk Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £55 photo
.esb r2d2 Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£80 photo
.esb leia hoth Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£75
.esb 21b Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £55 photo
.esb white bespin guard c9+ £65 photo
.Star Wars 20 back Meccano (France) jawa c9+ £50 photo
.esb dutch Klipper walrus man c9+ £55photo
.esb dutch klipper rebel commander c9+£55 photo
. esb dutch klipper white bespin guard c9+£55 photo

Even if you put together all the active star wars forum members from different sites plus the fb star wars group members, that still comes to less than 10,000 active members when there are hundreds of thousands of collectors around the world so a huge percentage of people will continue to be totally oblivious to this which could cause probs when they sell on ebay.

This analogy mirrors the "horsemeat scandal" from last year.


TOYTONI=Horsemeat supply
Ebay/various traders=supermarkets
Unsuspecting collectors=consumers.

So TOYTONI corrupts the supply of Vintage figures entering the supply chain. Many retailers and resellers have these contaminants graded,further compounding the problem,by the "so called" Action Figure Authority.

The clamour for pristine figures and high grades propels the market and increases supply compounding the problem.

Once the contaminant is identified the retailers clear the shelves(pull auctions)and are left with worthless stock.

Consumers aren't so lucky....they either spent a lot believing they were getting prime beef(genuine MOC) and are left with horse.(Toni's ironing)

The inquest begins in earnest,trying to isolate who knew what and how this happened.

Consumers seek compensation....but are very unlikely to receive anything.

Darren