Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

Lafos said:

jb1 said:

I'm starting to feel the same way mate, the fact that people are prepared to crucify someone on the hearsay especially from someone with such dubious background does not give me any hope for the future of the hobby. While this won't put me off collecting it does put me off being part of this community.

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How should the community have reacted from your point of view ? We have carried together a lot of facts, resulting in the current important discussion.

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No what you have is hearsay, circumstance nothing more. The only real fact is that people are letting their imaginations run away with them without any form of proof. You may well all be right at the end of the day I don't deny that but you all seem to be putting events together that may well not be true, your all making assumptions nothing more. I for one will glady hold up my hand and bow to your better jugment, apologize and be humble forevermore if your all proved to be right at some point. But I will not crucify someone for having two eBay accounts which is actually the ONLY "fact" that you have.

jb1 said:

Lafos said:

jb1 said:

I'm starting to feel the same way mate, the fact that people are prepared to crucify someone on the hearsay especially from someone with such dubious background does not give me any hope for the future of the hobby. While this won't put me off collecting it does put me off being part of this community.

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How should the community have reacted from your point of view ? We have carried together a lot of facts, resulting in the current important discussion.

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No what you have is hearsay, circumstance nothing more. The only real fact is that people are letting their imaginations run away with them without any form of proof. You may well all be right at the end of the day I don't deny that but you all seem to be putting events together that may well not be true, your all making assumptions nothing more. I for one will glady hold up my hand and bow to your better jugment, apologize and be humble forevermore if your all proved to be right at some point. But I will not crucify someone for having two eBay accounts which is actually the ONLY "fact" that you have.

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And what about the large numbers of mint fresh off the card figures that he is buying with this second account that never appear to get sold and just so happen to be the most common figures found on Palitoy and GM cards?

Why feel the need to keep the purchase of mint figures separate and extremely private from the sale of mint carded figures and also change your ID on your buying eBay account 30 times?

I don't think people are jumping to conclusions anymore.

M4K3R1 said:

spoons said:

BruceW said:

Okay, serious question:
What is an "02 or 03 Kenner bubble"?

I've tried to look back through the last 10 pages but am not quite sure what that means.

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Hi Bruce on some bubbles there is a number on the bottom right corner. I'm aware of 02 and 03 but presumably there are others. The bubbles are single stemmed.

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Does an 03 bubble on a US card make a difference or help in any way.
I am 99% sure one of my US ESB Moc has it.

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That should be fine, I've got an 02 Kenner bubble, it's really only the ROTJ line that had massive variance in bubble types per country.

I'm not aware of a bubble reference guide like the Baggie ones - it would be a useful tool

olisuds said:

Lafos said:

How should the community have reacted from your point of view ? We have carried together a lot of facts, resulting in the current important discussion.

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No what you have is hearsay, circumstance nothing more. The only real fact is that people are letting their imaginations run away with them without any form of proof. You may well all be right at the end of the day I don't deny that but you all seem to be putting events together that may well not be true, your all making assumptions nothing more. I for one will glady hold up my hand and bow to your better jugment, apologize and be humble forevermore if your all proved to be right at some point. But I will not crucify someone for having two eBay accounts which is actually the ONLY "fact" that you have.

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And what about the large numbers of mint fresh off the card figures that he is buying with this second account that never appear to get sold and just so happen to be the most common figures found on Palitoy and GM cards?

Why feel the need to keep the purchase of mint figures separate and extremely private from the sale of mint carded figures and also change your ID on your buying eBay account 30 times?

I don't think people are jumping to conclusions anymore.

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how do you know they dont get sold? do you have proof of that or is that another assumption? he is a dealer a little fact that seems to be overlooked. yes i agree it looks fishy but does galactables, staffie bull-terrier and many other traders have second accounts, most likely yes, does it mean their putting them on cards and selling them most likely not. jj has said he had contacts all over the place and many in europe do you honestly think toni would have just one supplier? your jumping to conclusions. has anyone actually asked toni ( not posted a demand on here but actually asked him) why his username has changed so many times?
im not actually trying to defend toni although i can see that is how it looks im actually trying to defend the right to have proof ( something which is very sorely lacking imho ) brought before deciding guilt.

Ok, maybe not solid evidence. But for someone who has quite much knowledge in the packaging design and printing-industry, the following facts doesn't speak in ToyToni's favor. This has been know by me for quite some time but I've never compared Toni's moc's and the unused cardbacks with cardbacks/moc's from childhood collections. Let me try to explain.

I own an unused Palitoy C-3PO cardback. I bought a carded Palitoy C-3PO from ToyToni years ago so that I could compare them to see if there was any differences between the two (just to rule out that the unused cardbacks were proof cards). They were identical. And with the latest knowledge and rumours, they are TOO IDENTICAL. The unused cardback AND the Moc from ToyToni both have two big flaws that would have been corrected before making the final printing. They both have:
1. A magenta (pink) dot under the nameplate. This was caused by dirt on the printing plate, which is to 99.9% removed by the printer. And if he misses it, the print batch is likely rejected by the QC department or a few (which could be some hundreds) slips through by mistake.
2. Registration error. One of the printing plates hasn't been placed correctly, which creates a glap in the printing colors. This is also a thing any printer would fix before printing the whole batch.

The two things above doesn't show on the childhood cardbacks and moc's Ive seen. So the unused cardback and moc from ToyToni are from the exact same printing batch. The cardback with price sticker is from a later or corrected print batch. What does this mean? In my world it actually means that the cards with the magenta dot (dirt on the printing plate) and the color registration error was FROM THE SAME STACK OF CARDS, either rejected by the Palitoy QC department or just left overs from the factory when they closed down. And the probability that the unused carcback and the moc from ToyToni just by coincidence have these two defects while others (which don't come from Tonis don't) lacks these defects/mistakes.

i have a very busy weekend and wanted to take more time to explain it better, but I thought it was more important to get it out. I'd be happy to answer questions and try to explain some things better if it doesnt make sense. Like I said first in the post, this is not solid proof, but the chances things like this would only happen on the stuff Toni has, are almost none imo.


I'd like to recieve pics of more of the unused cardbacks that are around, so that I closely can inspect and compare to ToyTonis carded and the ones from childhood collections. So if you have any please email me at rendahl[AT]echobase.nu

Mattias

jb1 said:

olisuds said:

No what you have is hearsay, circumstance nothing more. The only real fact is that people are letting their imaginations run away with them without any form of proof. You may well all be right at the end of the day I don't deny that but you all seem to be putting events together that may well not be true, your all making assumptions nothing more. I for one will glady hold up my hand and bow to your better jugment, apologize and be humble forevermore if your all proved to be right at some point. But I will not crucify someone for having two eBay accounts which is actually the ONLY "fact" that you have.

Click to expand...

And what about the large numbers of mint fresh off the card figures that he is buying with this second account that never appear to get sold and just so happen to be the most common figures found on Palitoy and GM cards?

Why feel the need to keep the purchase of mint figures separate and extremely private from the sale of mint carded figures and also change your ID on your buying eBay account 30 times?

I don't think people are jumping to conclusions anymore.

Click to expand...

how do you know they dont get sold? do you have proof of that or is that another assumption? he is a dealer a little fact that seems to be overlooked. yes i agree it looks fishy but does galactables, staffie bull-terrier and many other traders have second accounts, most likely yes, does it mean their putting them on cards and selling them most likely not. jj has said he had contacts all over the place and many in europe do you honestly think toni would have just one supplier? your jumping to conclusions. has anyone actually asked toni ( not posted a demand on here but actually asked him) why his username has changed so many times?
im not actually trying to defend toni although i can see that is how it looks im actually trying to defend the right to have proof ( something which is very sorely lacking imho ) brought before deciding guilt.[/quote]

The only person with the proof is Toni, and he can't or won't provide it. Why? Come to your own conclusion.

To me, It looks like he got greedy. Had he just continued to sell what looks like the original set of MOCS, whether factory sealed or not, then people would have just carried on as normal. It might've looked unusual but they were getting graded with no issue so all good.

But having run out of figures and still having the card backs and bubbles and the demand for them, he's now been found out with the second ebay account. Yes, not damning in itself, but enough to shadow all of his dealings with massive doubt, again, especially considering his silence.

I'd love some proof the MOCS are legit, I have some as well, but the damage is done now.

Ironic you bring up galactables and staffie, it the same person

jedisearcher said:

ironic you bring up galactables and staffie, it the same person

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irony indeed! :lol:

Still there is an up side, at least my post counts up :lol:

Some close ups of seals being taken now. It doesn't look good.

I think as with any court guilt needs to be proved beyond reasonable doubt based on the evidence provided, and defence presented by the accused. Based on the evidence presented for and against and based on Toni's defence of himself if you were a jury member, and this was a court case how would you find?

Adam

What about this?
All the stems of Tonis cards have rounded corners. I got a Rebel Soldier here that has sqaure corners.

Caswellbot said:

Andy raises a good point about the length of production run. Doesn't there seem to be a lot of bubble/ fig combos on the cards being discussed? That seems a bit odd to me .

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Although thinking about it there are double stemmed and single for 45b cards - this is a mess

And sand trooper rounded bubbles are fine

jedisearcher said:

lee gray said:

Just for the record, although I never checked for dimples closely on the top of the bubbles, I often noticed a dimple on the side of the bubble half way down and in the middle if thats any use ?

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Lee that's spot on. I have it on two of mine, pics are awhile back in this thread - waist high, crescent shaped, about 3mm or so.

They are only on the double stem bubbles for me, one on a han original, no English text on the back, and one on a leia bespin, with English test on the back.

I'm convinced it's a fault on the stash of bubbles he's got. I'd love to find it on some palitoy bubbles as well just to confirm it.

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Here is a Palitoy with the crescent:

And German (non-text) with it:

sandtrooper-5 said:

What about this?
All the stems of Tonis cards have rounded corners. I got a Rebel Soldier here that has sqaure corners.

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The right hand side one has 01 on the bottom corner of the bubble & the other I guess will have a 03?

Vernon said:

sandtrooper-5 said:

What about this?
All the stems of Tonis cards have rounded corners. I got a Rebel Soldier here that has sqaure corners.

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The right hand side one has 01 on the bottom corner of the bubble & the other I guess will have a 03?

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Yes, it is a 03 bubble!

Banton989 said:

I think as with any court guilt needs to be proved beyond reasonable doubt based on the evidence provided, and defence presented by the accused. Based on the evidence presented for and against and based on Toni's defence of himself if you were a jury member, and this was a court case how would you find?

Adam

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Obviously there is no court case ( having said that the potential amounts of money that would be involved, and the loss to individuals and impact upon the hobby would be devastating)

Many throughout this thread have put forward accusations, and defences.

Truly the one person that needs to comment is the person all of the furore has been levelled toward, if that person for whatever reason decides not to comment ( even though respected members of the collecting community have asked him to) then this leads the way to supposition, suspicion, mistrust and the natural human response of argument.

In law, there is a situation where silence can lead to inference, and Tacit admission could come into play ( let's face it most people in any given situation, would at least proffer a defence, or alternatively hold their hands up)

This is a very unfortunate situation, with serious ramifications upon the hobby and upon individuals who have purchased items in good faith.

A lot if the issue here is reputation, and if collectors have made purchases, that lets face it, they did not for a moment feel to be a risk, absolutely based on the fact that the seller had a great reputation in the hobby.

It is a very sad state of affairs, whatever your view, that will only be cleared up if the person in question puts forward explanation.

As I am relatively new to the hobby I do not in any way think I am qualified to make comment on particular pieces and purchases being genuine, however, I am old enough and wise enough to form an opinion, which is what most people will do, and the longer the silence is in place, the more negative people will feel.

I genuinely hope this is sorted for the good of the hobby itself, and for all of those collectors that are affected ( and future collectors...as they are also at risk, if it turns out there is flesh on the bones of this)

A damn shame if you ask me,

Just wondered has anyone actually spoken with Toni. I mean actually talked to him...? Does anyone know him well enoungh to ring him to ask him what the story is, Just wondering? In my short time collecting its very apparent that the serious SW collecting/dealer community is quite well known to each other. I would have thought he would be in contact with someone on here...just being nosey I guess :lol:

Ive spent the afternoon examining a few of these:



I think I've found 3 differences in the bubble seals between cards I believe were purchased from T.T. a Bossk and an I.T.F.P & one I bought via
Vectis a Luke Hoth (this has price sticker residue so I guess its a shop bought one).

Anyone got any Palitoy 03's to hand that they know are from TT and some that arent?

I need someone to confirm my findings before I making a complete tit of myself!

Whilst a court case doesn't seem possible I'm pretty sure trading standards will be very interested in what's going on. This isn't some two bit shyster selling knock off Chinese stuff out of a suitcase, I'm confident that the values involved should generate significant interest from them. They then have the power to involve the police and other agencies, like HMRC.

Toni might not be prepared to provide proof, but the authorities can hunt it down.

M_Rendahl said:

I'd like to recieve pics of more of the unused cardbacks that are around, so that I closely can inspect and compare to ToyTonis carded and the ones from childhood collections. So if you have any please email me at rendahl[AT]echobase.nu

Mattias

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I did a trawl of google image search I spotted these:

Carded Minty Figures

I am convinced I can see the same pink dot on these:




I also found this YouTube video (but its too fuzzy to work out if the dot is there)
[youtube] McTvvZnXQqs[/youtube]

Vintage Cardbacks






Hope that helps. Would it be fair to say that if these card backs were unused, we should be on the hunt for imperfections and blemishes like these??